View Poll Results: Edward Snowden... today.

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    40 43.48%
  • Traitor

    25 27.17%
  • Somewhere in-between (please elaborate)

    27 29.35%
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Thread: Edward Snowden... today.

  1. #251
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Incorrect. Most Americans expected the government was collecting meta data, but nobody knew the scope. That's also not the only thing he's revealed.

    NSA surveillance row: US phone-tapping revealed by Edward Snowden 'likely unconstitutional', says judge - Americas - World - The Independent
    Snowden document reveals key role of companies in NSA data collection | World news | theguardian.com

    Are you really claiming that if he did a mass release of all his documents it wouldn't hurt America at all?

    Our government has been doing a LOT more than collecting meta-data. Before Snowden nobody had the balls to even talk about it or to discuss what limits our government should have. Now we're having a national discussion about it. That's a big win for democracy and transparency.

    The "he did it only for fame" claim doesn't make any sense at all.
    I hope that America can awake to the dangers of this level of government mega data farming.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #252
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Do you have any reliable proof of this or this this just an idea that you dreamed up?
    Oh come on. Do you actually doubt it?

    We'll probably never have proof unless the Putin government collapses and we have to go help them re-build their government again.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  3. #253
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    He's no fricking hero. He was a civilian contractor, not a government employee or an active duty member of the military. He DID take an oath, however, to safeguard and protect the information he was entrusted with in order to help keep America and her citizens safe. He betrayed that oath and those he worked with because he's a self-absorbed whiner with an overly-exaggerated sense of self-importance. There is not an ounce of honest "servant" in that little turd, and we know that because (oh, and this is important), the information he is sharing and has shared has often had nothing whatsoever to do with the civil liberties of U.S. Citizens, and he instead took massive amounts of critical data to China and Russia, who are no friends of civil liberties or anything that smacks of people having authority over their government, and who most assuredly have it now.

    Snowden isn't a hero. He's a fool who is now the tool of Russian foreign policy. When they are done using him to try to screw the U.S., they will discard him like a used condom.
    I don't care what oath he took. Any professional oath one takes should ALWAYS take second to one's personal oath to oneself - to do what you believe is the right thing to do.
    And if your professional oath goes against your personal one...then screw the professional one.
    Being true to one's honor means everything. That is his and everyone's oath. An oath to humanity. An oath to righteousness. An oath to do what you believe is the right thing no matter what the consequences.
    Very few of us actually honor that personal oath...especially those in power. They cave to the will of their superiors. They don't rock the boat. They appease themselves with those old lines 'I was just doing my job' or 'I was just following orders'.
    This guy - apparently - decided his conscious had had enough. That the only way to honor his personal moral code was to break his professional one.
    If more people had the courage to do that, I strongly believe this world would be a much better place.


    And you are wrong when you say he is not a hero.

    'he·ro noun \ˈhir-(ˌ)ō\
    : a person who is admired for great or brave acts or fine qualities

    : a person who is greatly admired

    : the chief male character in a story, play, movie, etc.'

    Hero - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


    He is already greatly admired...by definition, he IS a hero.

  4. #254
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Oh come on. Do you actually doubt it?







    We'll probably never have proof unless the Putin government collapses and we have to go help them re-build their government again.



    Without reliable proof I doubt just about everything.

    Lots of people post comments about a lot of things without ever checking to see if there is any truth to the comments that they are posting.

    If anyone chooses to believe the unsupported comments that some people make, that's their choice.

    I won't be joining them.

    I see no reason to believe unsupported comments made by anonymous posters on the internet.
    Last edited by shrubnose; 12-19-13 at 03:11 PM.

  5. #255
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Without reliable proof I doubt just about everything.

    Lots of people post comments about a lot of things without ever checking to see if there is any truth to the comments that they are posting.
    Yeah, but we're talking about the Russians here. It ain't like he's in Switzerland.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  6. #256
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    By all means, we needed to be informed of what the NSA is doing. But running off? Sorry, but civil disobedience includes standing up and taking the rap. I find it hard to believe that Russia didn't have some expectation of getting their hands on that stuff. I'd bet my nards that the Russians have a copy of everything Snowden accesses there whether he knows it or not.

    Last time I looked libertarians were not against national security per se. Libertarianism isn't a suicide pact.
    So you support his actions of whistleblowing, but condemn him for being locked in a box without trial for years, possibly his entire life? What kind of solution is that? Do you envision him standing up in his top secret trial and having such a moving speech that the government decides to change their ways?

    The only thing that can change the government is outrage from the populace, not a convincing argument from someone they view as a terrorist. Turning himself in would've done nothing but end his life.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  7. #257
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Yeah, but we're talking about the Russians here.
    It ain't like he's in Switzerland.



    You're talking about the Russians.

    I'm not really in this conversation because I don't see that there's really anything to talk about.

  8. #258
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, the word is out, the wake up call was issued - what has changed?
    Change happens slowly. You know that. We probably won't know for sure what the ramifications are until probably at least 10 years after the fact.

    My prediction is that the government will just pass more laws to drive their operations even deeper from view, all the while telling us what we want to hear, and we'll lap it up.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  9. #259
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Change happens slowly. You know that. We probably won't know for sure what the ramifications are until probably at least 10 years after the fact.

    My prediction is that the government will just pass more laws to drive their operations even deeper from view, all the while telling us what we want to hear, and we'll lap it up.
    You are far more optimistic than I am. Once the gov't gets a power then it never seems prone to let it go. Can you cite any exceptions to that?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #260
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I don't care what oath he took. Any professional oath one takes should ALWAYS take second to one's personal oath to oneself - to do what you believe is the right thing to do.
    And if your professional oath goes against your personal one...then screw the professional one.
    Being true to one's honor means everything. That is his and everyone's oath. An oath to humanity. An oath to righteousness. An oath to do what you believe is the right thing no matter what the consequences.
    Uh no. In fact - virtually nobody makes that kind of oath.

    People do deliberately violate the law in order to demonstrate its' wrongness. These people are engaging in Civil Disobedience.

    Oh, but there's a catch - in order to be able to claim that mantle, you have to actually stand up to the consequences of your actions, vice stealing a bunch of information and then running to America's geopolitical foes.

    This guy - apparently - decided his conscious had had enough.
    Actually if you bother to read his interviews, the impression that comes across most strongly is that he did not feel that he was being given enough attention as the Mostest Smartest Clued In Guy In The Room. Snowden wasn't a partaker in this program. He did not collect, process, analyze, collate, or disseminate the information involved. He doesn't even appear to have been particularly well-informed about it. But it WAS the biggest thing he could use to get splashed onto the front page, and get back at all those meanies who didn't realize how special he was.

    That the only way to honor his personal moral code was to break his professional one.
    If more people had the courage to do that, I strongly believe this world would be a much better place.
    If Snowden had actually bothered not to flee the consequences, he would have been demonstrating courage. It still would have been stupefyingly bad judgement tied to illegal behavior, but it would have at least involved him demonstrating the courage of what he claims are his convictions. He chose.... not to.

    And you are wrong when you say he is not a hero.

    'he·ro noun \ˈhir-(ˌ)ō\
    : a person who is admired for great or brave acts or fine qualities

    : a person who is greatly admired

    : the chief male character in a story, play, movie, etc.'

    Hero - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    you can try for that if you like - but that is a standard so loose nearly any person with even the dimmest of public recognition falls under it. If "everyone" is a "hero", then no one is. But that is not what people mean when they try to describe Snowden as a hero - they are attempting to suggest that he has sacrificed himself in some noble cause. Unfortunately for the claim, his cause is as non-existent as his sacrifice.

    Greatly Admired? No he's not. There is a make-believe Snowden character out there that libertarian groups have foolishly tried to construct, and they seek to admire that construct, but it's not Snowden, because it has sharp differences from him. The actual Snowden? Nah. Benedict Arnold found that out long ago - nobody respects a turncoat.

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