View Poll Results: Edward Snowden... today.

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    40 43.48%
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    25 27.17%
  • Somewhere in-between (please elaborate)

    27 29.35%
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Thread: Edward Snowden... today.

  1. #11
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Those duties include protecting the details of classified data/methods. It is not necessary to release classified details of data collected or the specific methods used to get that data. For example one can assert that the US is paying assassins to take out US citzens suspected of criminal/terrorist activities without releasing the names of those doing the paying, those receiving payment or those targetted for elimmination. One can also, as Snowden appears to have done, keep a cache of backup details to be released to cleared members of the executive, lefislative and judicial authorities to prove the veracity of his accusations. Release of classified details to the press directly was not necessary to blow the whistle on the nature of this alleged extra constituional activity.
    So he should've just made claims without proof, and kept the American people in the dark, while trying to fight the system from the inside. Yeah, historically taking on the government through legal channels has always played out wonderfully.

    Even our commander in chief was in on it. Who was he supposed to tell? The programs were blessed off by congress and the president. The only option he had was to alert the American people of what was being done in our names, and for that we owe him.

    And nevermind the fact that he is being extremely discriminatory when releasing data. He's only doing it after he's combed through it. Have you seen any spies names released yet? Your argument seems to be that his first loyalty should be to his office, and not the American people or the constitution. If his job required him to kill children in dark rooms, should he? Or should he maybe let the American people know about what is being done?
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 12-15-13 at 05:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #12
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So he should've just made claims without proof, and kept the American people in the dark, while trying to fight the system from the inside. Yeah, historically taking on the government through legal channels has always played out wonderfully.

    Even our commander in chief was in on it. Who was he supposed to tell? The programs were blessed off by congress and the president. The only option he had was to alert the American people of what was being done in our names, and for that we owe him.

    And nevermind the fact that he is being extremely discriminatory when releasing data. He's only doing it after he's combed through it. Have you seen any spies names released yet? Your argument seems to be that his first loyalty should be to his office, and not the American people or the constitution. If his job required him to kill children in dark rooms, should he? Or should he maybe let the American people know about what is being done?
    You know the bolded to be true just how? The result has been what? He is holed up outside the US and it is very unlikely that his foreign "hosts" are doing that out of concern for the integrity of the US constitution or our national interests. The odds are tremendous that he is doling out more (and different) classified information to pay his "rent" since his departure.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #13
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You know the bolded to be true just how? The result has been what? He is holed up outside the US and it is very unlikely that his foreign "hosts" are doing that out of concern for the integrity of the US constitution or our national interests. The odds are tremendous that he is doling out more (and different) classified information to pay his "rent" since his departure.
    Are you claiming that Barrack Obama had no knowledge whatsoever of our spying programs? To you he was just a victim?

    And we know he's being extremely discriminatory because of the very reason I explained to you: He has 500,000+ documents and he's only released a small portion, none of which have had spy names or anything of the sort.

    And now you want to condemn him for doing things you THINK he's doing but you have no evidence of?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #14
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Edward Snowden... today. (15 December 2013)

    Now that some time has passed, and we have had a chance to view some of the ramifications of his actions, and how the government has reacted, how do you view Edward Snowden today?

    Hero? Traitor? Somewhere in between?

    Does your view of him today vary from your initial view after he first released documents?
    I don't think that my view has changed very much. He obviously acted against the law and is a traitor. What he did certainly will raise awareness among the criminals we want those instruments of data mining deployed against and will help them a little. Also the backlash in the populations of allied countries have reacted negatively even where their own governments knew how important the use of the technology is and helped NSA on the ground.

    On the other hand, it is a good reason to relive the controls we have in place and punish any infringement of present rules. We must guard against misuse by government of such powerful instruments. So in that sense he did help us a bit.

    What he did was certainly courageous,self centered and/ or stupid. But you will usually have that, when someone thinks the government is breaking the law, which it seems to have been doing. How is the guy supposed to act? Whatever he does is wrong.

    So, yes he is a criminal. But we seem to need a better legal mechanism to allow a whistle blower to blow in such a way that it does less harm and puts an effective strong check on mischievous behavior by government people.

  5. #15
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Edward Snowden... today. (15 December 2013)

    Now that some time has passed, and we have had a chance to view some of the ramifications of his actions, and how the government has reacted, how do you view Edward Snowden today?

    Hero? Traitor? Somewhere in between?

    Does your view of him today vary from your initial view after he first released documents?
    If anyone aside from Nelson Mandela qualifies as a hero, it would be Ed Snowden! ON a thread about the Pope being named Man of the year, I posted that by TIME's supposed standard - Ed Snowden should have won that award, because he has had more impact than the Pope or any everyone else this year. Would anyone be talking about the NSA, and a surveillance apparatus that is international in scope, if Ed Snowden hadn't taken his files with him on that trip to Hong Kong?

    It was absolutely sickening to watch the spin and damage control by Obama & Co. afterwards....namely that the system has checks and balances, and Snowden could have addressed his concerns by going through proper channels....bull**** all the way around! Because the checks are FISA courts, which we are discovering more and more everyday, are nothing better than rubberstamps who approve every request that crosses their desks. And, if anyone is familiar with retired NSA and CIA employees who became whistleblowers, like Thomas Drake and Russel Tice, in interviews today, they are the biggest fans of Ed Snowden, because they didn't take the evidence to back up their allegations...which were denied by the White House, and now all of the allegations they made about mass scale data collection has been provided to prove that the Administration officials are the ones who have been lying. So, if Snowden had gone through the proper channels like the other whistleblowers, he would have also been ignored and marginalized as a delusional crank.

  6. #16
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Are you claiming that Barrack Obama had no knowledge whatsoever of our spying programs? To you he was just a victim?
    Or maybe he's still playing that "three dimensional chess" game that Tom Hartmann used to pull out as an excuse when Obama was starting to disappoint the Democratic base a year in to the job.

    Seriously, these Democrats aren't going to be happy when these surveillance tools are back in the hands of a Republican president. So, if they don't hold the Obama Administration to the same standard they would apply to a Republican, then they have guaranteed the further entrenchment of the surveillance state.

  7. #17
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Hero. No doubt about it.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

  8. #18
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Edward Snowden... today. (15 December 2013)

    Now that some time has passed, and we have had a chance to view some of the ramifications of his actions, and how the government has reacted, how do you view Edward Snowden today?

    Hero? Traitor? Somewhere in between?

    Does your view of him today vary from your initial view after he first released documents?
    I say hero.If anyone is a traitor it is those in the NSA who do the domestic spying and those who ordered the NSA to violate the Constitution.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #19
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Both - to the U.S. government he is a traitor, to the American people he is a hero.
    The real question here is: Has the U.S. government betrayed the U.S.A. (i.e. the American people and the Constitution)?

  10. #20
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    1) Are you claiming that Barrack Obama had no knowledge whatsoever of our spying programs? To you he was just a victim?

    2) And we know he's being extremely discriminatory because of the very reason I explained to you: He has 500,000+ documents and he's only released a small portion, none of which have had spy names or anything of the sort.

    And now you want to condemn him for doing things you THINK he's doing but you have no evidence of?
    1) No. I am claiming that the law was not broken. It may well be an unconstitutional law, as many are, including gun control laws. Setting a precedent that one's "strong personal belief" that a law is unconstitutional means that breaking that law is OK is not a wise idea.

    2) In your opinion he was justified in releasing classified information that you deem to be harmless, or even his patriotic duty, because you were not aware of it. If you and folks of like mind are on his jury then his breaking of the law can be nullified by the jury.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 12-15-13 at 09:07 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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