View Poll Results: Edward Snowden... today.

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Thread: Edward Snowden... today.

  1. #171
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    outstanding post cpwill
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    He's no fricking hero. He was a civilian contractor, not a government employee or an active duty member of the military. He DID take an oath, however, to safeguard and protect the information he was entrusted with in order to help keep America and her citizens safe. He betrayed that oath and those he worked with because he's a self-absorbed whiner with an overly-exaggerated sense of self-importance. There is not an ounce of honest "servant" in that little turd, and we know that because (oh, and this is important), the information he is sharing and has shared has often had nothing whatsoever to do with the civil liberties of U.S. Citizens, and he instead took massive amounts of critical data to China and Russia, who are no friends of civil liberties or anything that smacks of people having authority over their government, and who most assuredly have it now.

    Snowden isn't a hero. He's a fool who is now the tool of Russian foreign policy. When they are done using him to try to screw the U.S., they will discard him like a used condom.
    Physics is Phun

  2. #172
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    What is legal about obtaining personal records of people without a warrant?
    Are you asking me like you've seriously never read a defense of it? It's storage of metadata. Why are you assuming the metadata of calls on Sprint's LTE infrastructure is your personal record? The content of your phone call might be yours, I don't see why the method of the call being routed from BTS to MSC back down the spine on the other side of the network is "yours" at all. But that's really either here nor there, I'm more fascinated at the implication that you've never read an argument for it being legal. I'm more fascinated that you genuinely believe there to be absolutely no argument whatsoever. You really thought that?

    Monitoring phone calls, etc.
    Except it's not. It's metadata storage.

    If you were to do that you would be thrown in jail.
    If I were to try to arrest someone I'd be thrown in jail, too, so that's a moot point.

    Nowhere in the Constitution does it outline the government rights to private information except in the 4th amendment which protects against search and seizure of said information.
    Which information again? The CDMA/LTE network infrastructure and protocols? No, I'd imagine it's not. Thankfully, that's covered when you're talking about national defense. Unless you think communication infrastructure is unimportant when it comes to defense.

    I'm shocked that you either a) think there's not a rational argument for this b) are pretending you think there's not a rational argument. I mean, it's one thing to disagree, but you seem to think there's no possible way legal scholars would see the legality of this. Which is just mind boggling, since most do- including the federal judges that have approved and re-approved this for years and years.
    Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 12-16-13 at 08:27 PM.
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  3. #173
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    There is not an ounce of honest "servant" in that little turd, and we know that because (oh, and this is important), the information he is sharing and has shared has often had nothing whatsoever to do with the civil liberties of U.S. Citizens, and he instead took massive amounts of critical data to China and Russia, who are no friends of civil liberties or anything that smacks of people having authority over their government, and who most assuredly have it now.
    I'm shocked, too, at how people just look that over in order to have his actions line up with what they'd like to think of him. As if "all" he did was share information about PRISM to the Guardian. But his supporters just ignore that, because if they look at it critically, they realize they can't hang the label patriot on him (I mean, they shouldn't have been trying to do so at all, but if they look at the whole story, it totally evaporates even under their own logic).
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    He's no fricking hero. He was a civilian contractor, not a government employee or an active duty member of the military. He DID take an oath, however, to safeguard and protect the information he was entrusted with in order to help keep America and her citizens safe. He betrayed that oath and those he worked with because he's a self-absorbed whiner with an overly-exaggerated sense of self-importance. There is not an ounce of honest "servant" in that little turd, and we know that because (oh, and this is important), the information he is sharing and has shared has often had nothing whatsoever to do with the civil liberties of U.S. Citizens, and he instead took massive amounts of critical data to China and Russia, who are no friends of civil liberties or anything that smacks of people having authority over their government, and who most assuredly have it now.

    Snowden isn't a hero. He's a fool who is now the tool of Russian foreign policy. When they are done using him to try to screw the U.S., they will discard him like a used condom.
    He IS a hero. He kept America safe by warning them about the dangers of tyranny and corruption. The government is trying to take away freedom and privacy and anyone who opposes gets labeled crazy or bad.

  5. #175
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tothian View Post
    He IS a hero. He kept America safe by warning them about the dangers of tyranny and corruption. The government is trying to take away freedom and privacy and anyone who opposes gets labeled crazy or bad.
    What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #176
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
    Satanists, if Tothian's previous posts are any indication.

    In reality, it makes them people that realize that freedom and safety have an inverse relationship and that storing cellular metadata isn't a big issue when compared to the benefits.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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  7. #177
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tothian View Post
    He IS a hero. He kept America safe by warning them about the dangers of tyranny and corruption. The government is trying to take away freedom and privacy and anyone who opposes gets labeled crazy or bad.
    Bull****. He didn't say crap about tyranny other than to throw around self-aggrandizing accusations, and he hasn't substantiated or even maintained a single charge of corruption (which is the turning of political power to personal or party benefit). He's a self-interested little narcissist with a grandiose self-image. There are plenty of people who oppose the level of collection that the current IC engages in and aren't getting labled crazy or bad -BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALSO DISCLOSE A METRIC CRAP TON OF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ON ONGOING COLLECTION THAT IN NO WAY IMPINGES ON AMERICAN CITIZENS, which is what Snowden did.

    As OneWorldOrder points out - only by ignoring what Snowden has actually done can you maintain some kind of "hero" facade. Heroes sacrifice themselves for the good of others. Cowards sell out others in attempts to keep safe themselves. The fact that Snowden took four laptops full of secret information to the Chinese and Russians instead of staying in CONUS and facing trial over the issue says everything we need to know about which side of that line he falls on.


    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640
    What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
    Well, quite possibly it makes them "people who are aware of the actual workings of the program" (which, it seems, Snowden had only a loose outline awareness of), but at the very least it makes them "people who value the ability to get on the front page of the news less than forestalling attacks against American citizens".
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-16-13 at 10:26 PM.

  8. #178
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
    Depends what they did with that knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Satanists, if Tothian's previous posts are any indication.

    In reality, it makes them people that realize that freedom and safety have an inverse relationship and that storing cellular metadata isn't a big issue when compared to the benefits.
    Hahaha. You so funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Bull****. He didn't say crap about tyranny other than to throw around self-aggrandizing accusations, and he hasn't substantiated or even maintained a single charge of corruption (which is the turning of political power to personal or party benefit). He's a self-interested little narcissist with a grandiose self-image. There are plenty of people who oppose the level of collection that the current IC engages in and aren't getting labled crazy or bad -BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALSO DISCLOSE A METRIC CRAP TON OF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ON ONGOING COLLECTION THAT IN NO WAY IMPINGES ON AMERICAN CITIZENS, which is what Snowden did.

    As OneWorldOrder points out - only by ignoring what Snowden has actually done can you maintain some kind of "hero" facade. Heroes sacrifice themselves for the good of others. Cowards sell out others in attempts to keep safe themselves. The fact that Snowden took four laptops full of secret information to the Chinese and Russians instead of staying in CONUS and facing trial over the issue says everything we need to know about which side of that line he falls on.




    Well, quite possibly it makes them "people who are aware of the actual workings of the program" (which, it seems, Snowden had only a loose outline awareness of), but at the very least it makes them "people who value the ability to get on the front page of the news less than forestalling attacks against American citizens".
    There's no way I can help you see the truth and the error of your ways, is there...

  9. #179
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tothian View Post
    There's no way I can help you see the truth and the error of your ways, is there...
    given that the people that disagree with you have factual support for their positions whereas you appear to have uninformed just-so statements? Yeah, you're probably not going to convince me. Or anyone else, really, for that matter.

  10. #180
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sadly, we live in a digital age where data is rapidly replicable and fungible. Everything Snowden took is already lost, and will be released to the public whenever Putin deems it most advantageous.
    That's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Snowden hasn't yet released access to this digital information - something possibly to be gained and nothing really to be lost by the gesture.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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