View Poll Results: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

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Thread: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

  1. #131
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Public Accommodation laws don't involve involuntary servitude becaues the voluntarily open a business and voluntarily choose which goods and services that business will offer. They are free at any time to not offer such goods and remove it from their options. Public Accommodation laws do require that if goods and services are voluntarily offered they must be offered without discrimination based on criteria defined in the law.


    >>>>
    government cannot apply force to one citizen, and make him work for another citiznen...unless a crime has been committed.

    one citizen cannot be the servant of another under force or coercion.....becuase the government says so.........thats unconstitutional.

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    How can it be in the constitution and not be constitutional? You mean under the federal constitution?

    Yes. That section of the Colorado Constitutions was implemented (IIRC) in 1992 to amend the State Constitution. If was found to be unconstitutional under the Federal Constitution in the case of Romer v. Evans. It was enacted to specifically target gays because some local entities passed local ordinances to provide homosexuals protections under their local Public Accommodation statutes. That amendment was intended to remove such local protections within the local jurisdictions.

    Just because a court find a subordinate law, and all laws (whether State Statutory Law, State Constitutions, or Federal Statutory Law) are subordinate to the United States Constitution. If a law is found unconstitutional, that doesn't mean that it it automatically removed from the - ah - "printed" version. It simply means that section of the law is invalid. To correct the "printed" (or official version if you will) of the law the same process that created the law must be followed to remove the text.

    As an example, Alabama amended it's State Constitution to ban interracial marriages. That was overturned via the Loving v. Virginia case. That amendment though remained part of the constitution until the people of Alabama voted to remove it which didn't happen until 2000. (A sad note is that 40% of the vote was to keep the language on record.)


    >>>>

  3. #133
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    You mean, like, read the entire thread? Good God man...

    No, just click the chevrons in the quote to follow it back.


    Here is the type of post I was responding to:

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    13th amendment --Passed by Congress on January 31, 1865, and ratified on December 6, 1865, the 13th amendment abolished slavery in the United States and provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.".

    Colorado constitution:
    Section 3. Inalienable rights. All persons have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    Section 26. Slavery prohibited. There shall never be in this state either slavery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.

    Section 30b. No Protected Status Based on Homosexual, Lesbian or Bisexual Orientation. Neither the State of Colorado, through any of its branches or departments, nor any of its agencies, political subdivisions, municipalities or school districts, shall enact, adopt or enforce any statute, regulation, ordinance or policy whereby homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships shall constitute or otherwise be the basis of or entitle any person or class of persons to have or claim any minority status, quota preferences, protected status or claim of discrimination. This Section of the Constitution shall be in all respects self�executing....

    ..not enforced


    >>>>

  4. #134
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    government cannot apply force to one citizen, and make him work for another citiznen...unless a crime has been committed.

    one citizen cannot be the servant of another under force or coercion.....becuase the government says so.........thats unconstitutional.

    No Crime was committed and the baker was not "forced" to serve anyone.

    He voluntarily opened the business, he voluntarily decided to produce wedding cakes - no force or coercian was used. The law is simply that if he voluntarily opens a place of Public Accommodation then he cannot discriminate based on criteria outlined in the law.

    Pretty simple really.


    >>>>

  5. #135
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    No, just click the chevrons in the quote to follow it back.


    Here is the type of post I was responding to:



    >>>>
    And here you were just talking about sarcasm.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    No Crime was committed and the baker was not "forced" to serve anyone.

    He voluntarily opened the business, he voluntarily decided to produce wedding cakes - no force or coercian was used. The law is simply that if he voluntarily opens a place of Public Accommodation then he cannot discriminate based on criteria outlined in the law.
    Do you think requiring people to have a business license to use their property as a business is coercion?

    In any event, the decision to have a business and the decision to take part individual transactions are different decisions.

    Did you notice how your argument is basically saying no law can be coercion if the thing being acted on is a business owner?
    Last edited by Henrin; 12-14-13 at 02:50 PM.

  7. #137
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    No Crime was committed and the baker was not "forced" to serve anyone.

    He voluntarily opened the business, he voluntarily decided to produce wedding cakes - no force or coercian was used. The law is simply that if he voluntarily opens a place of Public Accommodation then he cannot discriminate based on criteria outlined in the law.

    Pretty simple really.


    >>>>
    no it is not, the property is private property, a customer has no exercisable rights and another persons property.......as a citiznen i do not surrender my property rights to government when i enter the business world.......if i commit a crime, or engage in unlawful heath and safety practices, ..then government can act on me.

    governments duty is to secure rights of the people, ......the gay couple has had no rights of theirs violated at all............but the baker is having his property rights, and his liberty threaten by government.

    government through their action is applying force to this person, they are directing[forcing] him to serve another person with a cake.

    if he refuses the judge order, then he can go to jail, or he can make the cake, or the last would be to close his shop.

    so he is faced with force, or coercion, to preform an action of baking a cake for another citizen.

  8. #138
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post

    Did you notice how your argument is basically saying no law can be coercion if the thing being acted on is a business owner?
    yes ..very good....

    so in the minds of some people ..if you run a business and your open to the public, government can make you do anything, whatever the government deems is good and proper.....

  9. #139
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you think requiring people to have a business license to use their property as a business is coercion?

    In any event, the decision to have a business and the decision to take part individual transactions are different decisions.

    Did you notice how your argument is basically saying no law can be coercion if the thing being acted on is a business owner?

    No, what I'm saying is that the argument that Public Accommodation laws are a violation of the 13th Amendments prohibition against Slavery and what "Involuntary Servitude" conditions when people owned people either for live (Slavery) or for a specified period measured in years is a shameful and embarrassing comparison.

    I think Public Accommodation laws should be repealed based on personal property and free association rights, but that is my opinion. The fact is that Public Accommodation laws have existed for over 100 years they have been passed by ever legislature in each State, they have been passed by Congress. They have been reviewed upside down and sideways by every level of court in the nation including State Supreme Courts and the United States Supreme Court and been found to be a proper exercise of government power to regulate commerce. And not once has the "involuntary servitude" argument resulted in anything other then it being laughed out of court.

    We aren't going to get these laws overturned, won't happen. To remove them we need to get them repealed by the legislatures.



    >>>>

  10. #140
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    yes, i love it more when the rib-eye is "prime beef"...although "choice" is very good.



    Why is it that some groups and some governments in the USA have decided that everything that tastes really good is bad for you?

    I'm not saying that everyone should eat rib-eyes and buttery mashed potatoes with gravy every day but I don't believe that a good, tasty meal once in a while has put very many people in the ground.




    "Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."
    ~ Ronald Reagan

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