View Poll Results: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

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Thread: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

  1. #111
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    So, what happened to the Muslims?
    IIRC they lost.

    ETA: Muslim cab drivers lose round in court | Minnesota Public Radio News

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I doubt the generalization is true.
    Feel Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Can you provide us with a list of people who called for the Muslims to be fired yet defended the bakers?
    I wasn't on this board 6 years ago. It was a different board, so no I can't pull a "list".

    I said the "same type", not the same people. And yes the same type of people were against Muslim freedom of religion yet support this baker. Then there are the same types of people that support Christian symbology at tax payer expense yet didn't want to allow a privately funded Mosque in New York City because it was to clos
    Last edited by WorldWatcher; 12-13-13 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    13th amendment --Passed by Congress on January 31, 1865, and ratified on December 6, 1865, the 13th amendment abolished slavery in the United States and provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.".

    Colorado constitution:
    Section 3. Inalienable rights. All persons have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    Section 26. Slavery prohibited. There shall never be in this state either slavery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.

    Section 30b. No Protected Status Based on Homosexual, Lesbian or Bisexual Orientation. Neither the State of Colorado, through any of its branches or departments, nor any of its agencies, political subdivisions, municipalities or school districts, shall enact, adopt or enforce any statute, regulation, ordinance or policy whereby homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships shall constitute or otherwise be the basis of or entitle any person or class of persons to have or claim any minority status, quota preferences, protected status or claim of discrimination. This Section of the Constitution shall be in all respects self�executing....

    ..not enforced
    Last edited by Master PO; 12-13-13 at 09:18 PM.

  3. #113
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Section 30b. No Protected Status Based on Homosexual, Lesbian or Bisexual Orientation. Neither the State of Colorado, through any of its branches or departments, nor any of its agencies, political subdivisions, municipalities or school districts, shall enact, adopt or enforce any statute, regulation, ordinance or policy whereby homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships shall constitute or otherwise be the basis of or entitle any person or class of persons to have or claim any minority status, quota preferences, protected status or claim of discrimination. This Section of the Constitution shall be in all respects self�executing....

    ..not enforced
    Section 30b of the Colorado Constitution is based on a 1992 ballot initiative, it is not enforced because it is not Constitutional.


    >>>>

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Section 30b of the Colorado Constitution is not enforced because it is not Constitutional.


    >>>>
    yes I know ..I noted it in my post, even the people of Colorado, thru constitutional amendment know it is wrong to apply force to people. who have committed no crime, or threaten anyone's health or safety

  5. #115
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    yes I know ..I noted it in my post, even the people of Colorado, thru constitutional amendment know it is wrong to apply force to people. who have committed no crime, or threaten anyone's health or safety
    You said "not enforced" which implies the law is/was valid, just not enforced. A new administration (i.e. Governor) could choose to start enforcing it if you will. That isn't correct, the law is not active because it's unconstitutional and therefore unenforceable.

    I'm not sure where you get that from. Question 2 only applied to Gays, it didn't repeal their Public Accommodation laws. Using that logic they then agreed (because it wasn't part of the Amendment) that it was OK to apply force to people. who have committed no crime, or threaten anyone's health or safety if the discrimination was based on race, creed, ethnicity, religion, national origin, sex, age, or marital status (those provisions already in the law).

    Question 2 did not say what you say it said, in actually it said that force is OK, just not to protect the gays.


    >>>>

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I'm not sure where you get that from. Question 2 only applied to Gays, it didn't repeal their Public Accommodation laws. Using that logic they then agreed (because it wasn't part of the Amendment) that it was OK to apply force to people. who have committed no crime, or threaten anyone's health or safety if the discrimination was based on race, creed, ethnicity, religion, national origin, sex, age, or marital status (those provisions already in the law).

    Question 2 did not say what you say it said, in actually it said that force is OK, just not to protect the gays.


    >>>>
    I did not say it did, the Colorado constitution and our federal constitution state, no person can be put into involuntary servitude unless a crime has been committed and the person convicted.

    discrimination is not a CRIME, it is a statutory law, code....not criminal law.

  7. #117
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    I did not say it did, the Colorado constitution and our federal constitution state, no person can be put into involuntary servitude unless a crime has been committed and the person convicted.
    The 13th Amendment argument is horsepoop. Public Accommodation laws require no person to enter into involuntary servitude as understood under the framing of the 13th Amendment. Involuntary servitude was basically temporary slavery (in other words indentured servants that "sold" themselves into temporary slavery for a specified period of time. The business is free to offer or not offer their goods and services, the law simply requires that it offer those goods and services equally. If they don't want to provide those goods and services they are free to not offer them.

    A much better argument, IMHO, is that the violate the property rights of the owner in deciding to whom they will provide those goods and their labor, but that is a different argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    discrimination is not a CRIME, it is a statutory law, code....not criminal law.
    Didn't say it was a Crime, it's illegal but that is something different. Something does not have to be CRIME (since you want to shout) to be illegal.

    Same-sex Civil Marriage is a good example. It is illegal to enter into Civil Marriage in 30+ States, but it is not a crime under criminal law. There are Civil Laws and Criminal Laws, something in violation of Civil Law is still illegal, but it need to by a crime under Criminal Law.



    >>>>

  8. #118
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    The 13th Amendment argument is horsepoop. Public Accommodation laws require no person to enter into involuntary servitude as understood under the framing of the 13th Amendment. Involuntary servitude was basically temporary slavery (in other words indentured servants that "sold" themselves into temporary slavery for a specified period of time. The business is free to offer or not offer their goods and services, the law simply requires that it offer those goods and services equally. If they don't want to provide those goods and services they are free to not offer them.

    A much better argument, IMHO, is that the violate the property rights of the owner in deciding to whom they will provide those goods and their labor, but that is a different argument.



    Didn't say it was a Crime, it's illegal but that is something different. Something does not have to be CRIME (since you want to shout) to be illegal.

    Same-sex Civil Marriage is a good example. It is illegal to enter into Civil Marriage in 30+ States, but it is not a crime under criminal law. There are Civil Laws and Criminal Laws, something in violation of Civil Law is still illegal, but it need to by a crime under Criminal Law.



    >>>>
    the law is question is a statute..its CO code.

    Statutory law or statute law is written law (as opposed to oral or customary law) set down by a legislature (as opposed to regulatory law promulgated by the executive or common law of the judiciary) or by a legislator (in the case of an absolute monarchy).[1] Statutes may originate with national, state legislatures or local municipalities. Statutory laws are subordinate to the higher constitutional laws of the land.

    Involuntary servitude is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person's will to benefit another, under some form of coercion other than the worker's financial needs. While laboring to benefit another occurs also in the condition of slavery, involuntary servitude does not necessarily connote the complete lack of freedom experienced in chattel slavery; involuntary servitude may also refer to other forms of unfree labor. Involuntary servitude is not dependent upon compensation or its amount.

    The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes involuntary servitude illegal under any U.S. jurisdiction whether at the hands of the U.S. government or in the private sphere, except as punishment for a crime: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction

    indentured servitude continued in America until the beginning of the 20th century
    Last edited by Master PO; 12-14-13 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #119
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the law is question is a statute..its CO code.
    I know, I've provided the code citation and the text multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Statutory law or statute law is written law (as opposed to oral or customary law) set down by a legislature (as opposed to regulatory law promulgated by the executive or common law of the judiciary) or by a legislator (in the case of an absolute monarchy).[1] Statutes may originate with national, state legislatures or local municipalities. Statutory laws are subordinate to the higher constitutional laws of the land.
    Thank you for the lesson but I already knew that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Involuntary servitude is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person's will to benefit another, under some form of coercion other than the worker's financial needs. While laboring to benefit another occurs also in the condition of slavery, involuntary servitude does not necessarily connote the complete lack of freedom experienced in chattel slavery; involuntary servitude may also refer to other forms of unfree labor. Involuntary servitude is not dependent upon compensation or its amount.

    The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes involuntary servitude illegal under any U.S. jurisdiction whether at the hands of the U.S. government or in the private sphere, except as punishment for a crime: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction

    indentured servitude continued in America until the beginning of the 20th century
    Thank you again, but everything in the above is irrelevant. Public Accommodation laws are not Indentured Servitude under the usage of the term in the 13th Amendment.

    The owner of the business opened the business VOLUNTARILY (not shouting of course, just emphasizing). They VOLUNTARILY (not shouting of course, just emphasizing) determined what goods and/or services to offer to the public. They can VOLUNTARILY (not shouting of course, just emphasizing) stop offering their goods and services to the public. Public Accommodation laws only require that a business that has VOLUNTARILY (not shouting of course, just emphasizing) decided to offer goods and services to the public must do so in a non-discriminatory manner for the conditions outlined in the law.

    Trying to state a legal case that Public Accommodation laws will be found unconstitutional based on the 13th Amendment is just barking up the wrong tree. Every State in the Union has Public Accommodation laws and they have been reviewed by all levels of state courts and upheld as a proper function of the powers under of the State under the 10th Amendment to regulate commerce within that state. Colorado has had a Public Accommodation law for over 100 years. The federal Public Accommodation law has been reviewed and upheld by all levels of the federal courts including the Supreme Court and been found valid (Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States).


    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    I didn't shout, it was to show it must be criminal, discriminate is not a criminal offense.
    Again, for something to be illegal it does not have to be a criminal offense.

    Same-sex Civil Marriage is a good example. It is illegal to enter into Civil Marriage in 30+ States, but it is not a crime under criminal law. There are Civil Laws and Criminal Laws, something in violation of Civil Law is still illegal, but it need to by a crime under Criminal Law.


    >>>>

  10. #120
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Section 30b of the Colorado Constitution is based on a 1992 ballot initiative, it is not enforced because it is not Constitutional.
    How can it be in the constitution and not be constitutional? You mean under the federal constitution?

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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