View Poll Results: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

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Thread: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

  1. #91
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I also agree. However IMO, blacks and probably women would STILL be waiting to be treated equally in our society. The intrusion of govt in these cases advanced their positions in society in years instead of decades.

    And as you said, we need an educated society. In this case the govt intrusion assisted, accelerated, that education. Is it fair that Americans who ALREADY DESERVE to be treated equally, have to wait for the ignorant and intolerant to catch up? If ever? The fed govt is charged with protecting the minority over the will over the majority.
    I don't think so. There was necessity for a certain amount of government force to protect the rights and liberties of all. Anything relating to state or local laws, discrimination for public services and schools, etc. But would it be like segregated American if we allowed discrimination by private individuals and business? Certainly there would be a nonzero number of segregated business that may be able to persist, but I doubt that would be much above zero. Most of us won't support business like that and without money they go away.

    Besides, there are still places today allowed to discriminate and we see what happens there without government law. The last bastions of true elitism and segregation and discrimination, the Country Clubs have reversed course on membership not because the government said so but because of public outcry and money. So obviously we do have what it takes to limit the use of government force while still pushing socially and morally for a freer tomorrow. And that's what it will take to remain free.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  2. #92
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't think so. There was necessity for a certain amount of government force to protect the rights and liberties of all. Anything relating to state or local laws, discrimination for public services and schools, etc. But would it be like segregated American if we allowed discrimination by private individuals and business? Certainly there would be a nonzero number of segregated business that may be able to persist, but I doubt that would be much above zero. Most of us won't support business like that and without money they go away.

    Besides, there are still places today allowed to discriminate and we see what happens there without government law. The last bastions of true elitism and segregation and discrimination, the Country Clubs have reversed course on membership not because the government said so but because of public outcry and money. So obviously we do have what it takes to limit the use of government force while still pushing socially and morally for a freer tomorrow. And that's what it will take to remain free.
    "Now" Most of us would not now. Back then it was common in many parts of the country and many communities all over. It was even "the norm." It was what people knew and grew up with.

    A major reason that changed.....is because of anti-discrimination laws and society HAVING to accept it until it began to seem 'normal.' (Lord it makes me sad to write stuff like that.)

    As for the private places you mentioned, I'd have to know specifically what the decisions were based on.
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  3. #93
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    That is correct....EXCEPT the govt has created anti-discrimination laws to create a more equal society. Because it IS the job of the fed govt, as put forth in the Const, to protect the minority from the will of the majority. And this is one of those ways.
    yes they sure have, placed on governments, not people or business.

    AMENDMENT XIV

    Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

    Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

    Section 1.
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    it is equality under the law, NOT....by law.

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The classic answer? We the people can exercise the right to prevent you from raising hogs in your backyard for which the stink comes to ours.

    We can exercise the right to prevent you from having dogs that bark all night long on your property.

    We can exercise the right to prevent you from having massive fuel tanks on your land that could blow up and kill us.

    There are piles of rights we can exercise over your land.

    Oh, and we can tax it too.

    you show you do not even know the basics of what rights are about.

    your examples are health and safety reasons, which i already stated government can use force on.

    government can use force on crimes and health and safety.

    it cannot use force, becuase someone made you mad, sad, hurt your feelings, made you feel unwanted......emotion is not part of law.
    Last edited by Master PO; 12-12-13 at 01:29 PM.

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    SCOTUS disagrees. You cannot discriminate when renting or selling your own property. You cannot discriminate based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc., when offering a public service from your own property, such as a restaurant or a bakery. Therefore, you are wrong.
    these laws you site, ..they are statutory laws, created by the federal government and state governments.

    Statutory law or statute law is written law (as opposed to oral or customary law) set down by a legislature (as opposed to regulatory law promulgated by the executive or common law of the judiciary) or by a legislator (in the case of an absolute monarchy).[1] Statutes may originate with national, state legislatures or local municipalities. Statutory laws are subordinate to the higher constitutional laws of the land.


    no law is higher then constitutional law.

    AMENDMENT XIII

    Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.

    Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.

    Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    discrimination is not a crime.

    AMENDMENT XIV

    Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

    Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

    Section 1.
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

  6. #96
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Forced servitude of a private individual in a private business to use their livelihood to produce a product that went towards violating that individuals beliefs is wrong.

    The rights of the owner were not respected and the ruling was wrong. It's bigotry, tyranny, and a violation of religious and personal freedoms to be forced to conduct yourself in a manner that goes against your convictions and conscience. You, as an individual in a business should have the right to not be forced into servitude and do things that violate your beliefs/conscience because you exist within an industry. Being forced to make a cake for a gay wedding, or saying "if you refuse you will be punished" isn't a "gay rights" advancement, it's a bullying of the rights of others in the name of "equality" which is essentially forced servitude of private individuals and their businesses. It's wrong, it's not equality, and it is bigoted tyranny.

    I wonder how many people would be ok with forcing an openly homosexual run business that provided a service to provide that service for the WBC or some other organization and say that they cannot refuse to put their product/service out there because it's "religious discrimination" even though the owners feel very conflicted and do not want to provide a service that advances an agenda they believe is wrong and not being able to refuse that. Let's say that an openly gay business that support gay rights causes is in the business of designing signs. WBC comes by and asks them to design giant signs filled with gay slurs and hate messages against homosexuals to be used during one of their protests. The owner feels very strongly that such a thing is disgusting, wrong, vile, and does not want to use his business and personal labor and services to promote that and wants to deny a potential paying customer their service. Should they be allowed to do so? Should they be forced into servitude, violate their conscience, use their personal labor and personal image/product to serve the WBC and not be allowed to turn them away or say that "no, I'm uncomfortable with this and I, as an individual business owner, do not want to serve your cause." Since WBC is a religious organization, and since they exist and walked through the door of the business, should they have the right to force the homosexual run business with strong convictions against printing hate messages against homosexuals to print those signs? I think that they shouldn't, I think that the owners should have the right to not use their product to promote something that goes against their values, conscience and beliefs and say that they will not provide their services to the WBC because they do not want to labor and use themselves to advance the agenda of the WBC and print things that are very offensive to them and against their beliefs. The same should apply to a baker that doesn't want to bake a cake to be used in a "wedding" service for homosexual couples because they have strong beliefs that such an act is wrong and do not want to use their personal labor, product, service and business to promote that. It's about respecting the rights and beliefs of others and not forcing them into servitude and to do things, as an individual, that interfere with their personal values and beliefs.
    Last edited by digsbe; 12-12-13 at 03:23 PM.
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  7. #97
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Jim Crow laws were actual laws. Government force against free exercise of rights and obvious to any honest man NOT what I was talking about. If fact given everything I stated about the use of government force, you should know I'd be in favor of removing the government force against rights.

    If you want to debate, that's great. But let's keep the dishonest hyperbole and hysteria out of it.
    So it's fine with you for a community to inflict that kind of harm on a minority so long as they don't make it official? An informal agreement to not serve blacks in a town or county is fine? Power is power, and abuse if that power is the same whether it's written down in a statute or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am addressing the constant statement that a business is "private" property. It is in terms of ownership. It is no longer "private" when you open it up to commerce. Then it becomes "public domain." "Commerce" and "private" are contradictions. It really isn't "private" business, but "public" business.
    Well, since I wasn't arguing that, why did you address that comment to me? That should have gone to someone like Ernst. A business that opens its doors to the public takes on specific responsibilities to the public, including serving all who come in.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Ruling was wrong, government is forcing servitude and making the owner violate his religous beliefs. One person's rights should not excede the rights of others.

  9. #99
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    So it's fine with you for a community to inflict that kind of harm on a minority so long as they don't make it official? An informal agreement to not serve blacks in a town or county is fine? Power is power, and abuse if that power is the same whether it's written down in a statute or not.
    You mean by not giving them cake? They are free to make their own business and serve their own clientele of their choice. As long as the individual is free, we can exercise all sorts of options that can push forward and avoid this "harm".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #100
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    Re: Judge Enforces Law: Did this judge rule right according to law and facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You mean by not giving them cake? They are free to make their own business and serve their own clientele of their choice. As long as the individual is free, we can exercise all sorts of options that can push forward and avoid this "harm".
    So then your only defense against prejudice is popular opinion. Well what if prejudice is the popular opinion? What's your answer if Jim Crow isn't a law, but simply what people do? Keep in mind, before separate but equal, a lot of businesses simply wouldn't serve blacks at all. Whole segments of their own communities were closed to them. You're saying that's perfectly fine because there's no official law about it. That's extremely short sighted.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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