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Question about race: Is a white south african, who immigrated to america....

Is a white South African, American citizen...considered an African american?

  • Total voters
    51
DaveFagan said:
Your earlier comment regarding Egypt gives clarity to African-American. I believe the nomenclature should refer to Black African Americans as opposed to African Americans. Qaddaffi was a African. Nasser. Mubarak. African American is a poor choice and inaccurate as well.
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There are a lot of light-skinned people in North Africa.
 
DaveFagan said:
Your earlier comment regarding Egypt gives clarity to African-American. I believe the nomenclature should refer to Black African Americans as opposed to African Americans. Qaddaffi was a African. Nasser. Mubarak. African American is a poor choice and inaccurate as well.
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How can in be inaccurate? If one was born in Africa and immigrated to the United States and we continue to insists on hyphenation they are the real sense African-America. To say someone born in Egypt, Libya or even South Africa for that matter that immigrates isn't an African-American isn't looking at a map. Now some of us may have pre-conceived ideas of what a African-American should look like, but even if one does not look like our pre-conceived idea that doesn't make them any less African-American. I always thought all this hyphenation was silly anyway.

Do we now have to add another round of hyphens if one is from northern Africa, i.e. Arab-African-American or North Sahara-African-American. We all originatated in Africa anyway via Lucy and whomever according the scientist so in a way everyone of us should start out with African. So I probably would be an African-European-American while someone from the Congo or Kenya would be an African-Middle Africa- African-American. Someone from China would be African-Asian-American.

Why not just call everyone here in America plain simple Americans and be done with it. When my wife took her citizenship test back in the early 90's INS was teaching there is no such thing as an hyphenated American, INS was say then we are all Americans regardless of where we were born or where we came from. Hmm, back to the melting pot of the world not a bad idea.
 
BlackAsCoal said:
It is neither a case of 'need' or 'deception' .. it's about what I choose to call myself and identify with .. just as millions Americans have done since this nations inception. It's not about what you may confuse me with .. in fact, it's not about you at all. It's how I choose to identify with my heritage .. which should not be a problem for you or anyone else at all.

How does my identification as an African-American disrupt the harmony of anyone?



What I get from it from it is exactly what it looks like .. an identification with my heritage.

My avatar is my daughter .. who also identifies herself as an African-American .. when it suits the circumstances. She's in the military and a leader, so there are all manner of things she is restricted by circumstance from doing. She recognizes that the military is not society.

I, her father, have no such restrictions.

What changes when I meet someone who identifies themselves as 'Indian-American' rather than 'American?' Answer, absolutely nothing.

If that affects you .. then you have the answer to what disrupts social harmony.

My question for you .. being a conservative .. is when did the right become aware of 'social harmony?' Surely you are aware of the intense adverarial relationship between conservatives and just about everybody else? How does that on-going hate-hate relationship add to social harmony?
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Hey... this Euro-American doesn't care what you call yourself. If you think it's important for people to know you're of African descent and worry they might not be able to figure it out without you adding "African-hyphen" to the "American" label, it's all good. You wouldn't want to be mistaken for someone of Swedish descent. That would be a very bad thing. :) The more we can focus on how different we are, the better it is for everyone.
 
This thread and poll is just academia shallow pointless word games.

Nor does it grasp why black Africans are in America, they were brought against their will as slaves, and their ancestry in Africa dates back as the oldest in human history. White South African citizens are of recent in history European colonial conquest and subjugation, not genetic and ancestral heritage.
 
shrubnose said:
Spain is also in Africa and in the Atlantic Ocean (The Canary Islands.).
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That's rather debatable. Most people would agree that Spaniards come from mainland Spain, and Ceuta, the Balearics, the Canaries, Melilla, etc., are a bit more like Spanish colonies.

Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that South Americans are (at least in most part) of European descent. You don't call Italian-Americans brown, but you do call Mexican-Americans (and thus by extent Spanish-Americans) brown. Curious.

I wonder, would an Argentine-American be brown or white?
 
Ad_Captandum said:
That's rather debatable. Most people would agree that Spaniards come from mainland Spain, and Ceuta, the Balearics, the Canaries, Melilla, etc., are a bit more like Spanish colonies.

Anyway,
it doesn't change the fact that South Americans are (at least in most part) of European descent. You don't call Italian-Americans brown, but you do call Mexican-Americans (and thus by extent Spanish-Americans) brown. Curious.

I wonder, would an Argentine-American be brown or white?
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That would depend on that Argentine-American's ancestors.

Hispanic -Americans can be any race.
 
Ad_Captandum said:
That's rather debatable. Most people would agree that Spaniards come from mainland Spain, and Ceuta, the Balearics, the Canaries, Melilla, etc., are a bit more like Spanish colonies.

Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that South Americans are (at least in most part) of European descent. You don't call Italian-Americans brown, but you do call Mexican-Americans (and thus by extent Spanish-Americans) brown. Curious.

I wonder, would an Argentine-American be brown or white?
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Me thinks there is way too much emphasis put on race and color and not on the individuals which are all of the Human Race. But here in the states, our politics have a divide and conquer strategy when it comes to search for votes. Winning political strategy seems to force the divisions by race, religion, income, education, gender etc. and the more the politicians can divided and sub-divide in their search for votes, the easier it is to get those votes from a division of people which they divided all us into.
 
BlackAsCoal said:
Why would diversity be a problem?

Does the rejection of diversity make us 'one people' .. or does it just make us pretend to be blind?
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Diversity is required to maintain the whole. To build a house, you need a variety of materials. If all you had was lumber made from trees, you could build a house, but it wouldn't stand for long. You also need a concrete, brick or stone foundation. And the interior would be difficult to live in if there wasn't any furniture, and it would be a bland place if it wasn't for paint or wall paper or pictures on the wall.

Like the house, our society needs diversity or it wouldn't stand for long, and it would be bland and uninteresting. It would also be stagnant in its ability to grow and advance.

But also like the house, our society shouldn't be pulling one part against the other(s). If the walls of the house were always pushing away from the roof or the floors, then the house would crumble in upon itself. All of the parts of the house must work together to maintain the structural integrity and also to have an interesting and pleasing environment in which to live.

In our society, we should work as a whole, not as individual parts without regard to how our actions effect the whole. We call a house a house. We should call ourselves Americans. In our houses, we decorate and paint our walls, similarly to how we can recognize the value and contribution to the whole of certain factions of our society. We value our diversity, and should continue to do so. But not the exclusion of a part or parts of that society.

We shouldn't expect our walls in our house to stand if they were not securely connected with nails, screws and/or bolts to the foundation and roof.

In our society in the US, the nails, screws and bolts that bind us are our citizenship in this country. That citizenship in this society is recognized and secured by what we call ourselves. Calling ourselves something that separates us from other parts of society, is the same as pulling the nails, screws and bolts from the walls that bind them to the foundation and roof.

If those that reject forced segregation, continue to self segregate, they are the cause to the damage done by their actions to themselves and to the society at large.

We should recognize our diversity, and celebrate it. However, we should not do anything that separates or segregates any part of the society from the whole, especially if done in an attempt to gain solidarity of a singular group which only breads a separatist environment within that group and creates a gap between that group and the rest of society.
 
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ecofarm said:
Their ancestors are not African.


History of South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They would be South African Americans, or just "mutts" like the rest of us.
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Well, they are, if you go back far enough.

I think that's the point -- where does the regression stop? Surely someone whose ancestors have lived in Africa for centuries is African, regardless of skin colour?

If not, how far back do we go?

Because if we regress far enough, all of us are from Africa. Homo sapiens started there on the savanna, and we are all, by extent, descendants of Africans. So where do we draw the line?
 
shrubnose said:
She looks mighty Nordic to me.
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She looks mighty nice to me.

CT.JPG

I wish we can all just be Americans. I don't refer to myself as a European-American because my roots go back to Europe (although I was born in California). And that reminds me, in Holland a black Dutch person is not referred to an a African-Dutch. They are just Dutch and they happen to be black and they don't mind being called black (at least the ones I have talked to).
 
Beaudreaux said:
Diversity is required to maintain the whole. To build a house, you need a variety of materials. If all you had was lumber made from trees, you could build a house, but it wouldn't stand for long. You also need a concrete, brick or stone foundation. And the interior would be difficult to live in if there wasn't any furniture, and it would be a bland place if it wasn't for paint or wall paper or pictures on the wall.

Like the house, our society needs diversity or it wouldn't stand for long, and it would be a bland and uninteresting. It would also be stagnant in its ability to grow and advance.

But also like the house, our society shouldn't be pulling one part against the other(s). If the walls of the house were always pushing away from the roof or the floors, then the house would crumble in upon itself. All of the parts of the house must work together to maintain the structural integrity and also to have an interesting and pleasing environment in which to live.

In our society, we should work as a whole, not as individual parts without regard to how our actions effect the whole. We call a house a house. We should call ourselves Americans. In our houses, we decorate and paint our walls, similarly to how we can recognize the value and contribution to the whole of certain factions of our society. We value our diversity, and should continue to do so. But not the exclusion of a part or parts of that society.

We shouldn't expect our walls in hour house to stand if they were not securely connected with nails, screws and/or bolts to the foundation and roof.

In our society in the US, the nails, screws and bolts that bind us are our citizenship in this country. That citizenship in this society is recognized and secured by what we call ourselves. Calling ourselves something that separates us from other parts of society, is the same as pulling the nails, screws and bolts from the walls that bind them to the foundation and roof.

If those that reject forced segregation, continue to self segregate, they are the cause to the damage done by their actions to themselves and to the society at large.

We should recognize our diversity, and celebrate it. However, we should not do anything that separates or segregates any part of the society from the whole, especially if done in an attempt to gain solidarity of a singular group which only breads a separatist environment within that group and creates a gap between that group and the rest of society.
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That was very well said my friend. I agree with much of it, but where I disagree is important to me.

Speaking from my perspective, it is not African-Americans that separate us from American society. That separation has been forced upon us, and in spite of the many advances in this society that I have witnessed in my life, that separation still exists.

Case in point, the war on drugs, which is racist in its application to the core. I'm sure you're aware that I can easily cite many studies that demonstrate the truth of the racist application of law in the Just-Us system in this country towards a people who have been here for more than 400 years. YET, those laws still exist .. AND, when the criminally insane Just-Us system attacks AMERICAN black people .. guess who has to fight those battle almost alone? African-Americans.

With all due respect, I've attended more than a few rallies against the terrorist tactics against black people, and they were almost all black people.

I attended many antiwar rallies during the Bush years and was often asked why more blacks didn't attend. My answer was always, because you didn't show up at theirs.

What I suggest to you brother is that we as a nation must grow intellectually to understand that diversity is an asset. We come together as a nation, as a people, when it is necessary. But we can still maintain our own identities, beliefs, and cultures, while still maintaining a belief in ourselves as a nation.

I don't seek the illusion of comradeship, I seek its truth.
 
Papa bull said:
Hey... this Euro-American doesn't care what you call yourself. If you think it's important for people to know you're of African descent and worry they might not be able to figure it out without you adding "African-hyphen" to the "American" label, it's all good. You wouldn't want to be mistaken for someone of Swedish descent. That would be a very bad thing. :) The more we can focus on how different we are, the better it is for everyone.
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:0) I like you brother .. like talking to you .. but you think about YOU way too much. Whatever I call myself has absolutely nothing to do with you or anybody else. YOU, whomever you may be, don't (eb) count.

I'm enjoying being who I am.
 
BlackAsCoal said:
:0) I like you brother .. like talking to you .. but you think about YOU way too much. Whatever I call myself has absolutely nothing to do with you or anybody else. YOU, whomever you may be, don't (eb) count.

I'm enjoying being who I am.
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When I'm thinking about why it's so important to YOU to call YOURSELF an African-American, I'm not thinking about me. I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about what it is going on in that head of yours that makes it so important that you label yourself as African American. I'm wondering what this country would be like if everyone had the same issues going on. Would we have....

Cuban-Americans
English-Americans
Homosexual-Americans
Female-Americans
Vietnamese-Americans
Samoan-Americans

etc. etc. etc.

Why what the hell.... if you ain't got a hyphen, you ain't nobody, LOL. We have to make sure everyone in every other group knows that they aren't the same as we are and by applying these labels, not only do we make sure they know it, but that they know it's damned important to us that they know it. And people wonder how we end up with racist cliques. Of course, everyone has a right to be as racist as they want. What goes on in peoples' own heads is their own business. Doesn't make it something to aspire to but it's certainly everyone's right if that's how they want to think and be.
 
Papa bull said:
When I'm thinking about why it's so important to YOU to call YOURSELF an African-American, I'm not thinking about me. I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about what it is going on in that head of yours that makes it so important that you label yourself as African American. I'm wondering what this country would be like if everyone had the same issues going on. Would we have....

Cuban-Americans
English-Americans
Homosexual-Americans
Female-Americans
Vietnamese-Americans
Samoan-Americans

etc. etc. etc.

Why what the hell.... if you ain't got a hyphen, you ain't nobody, LOL. We have to make sure everyone in every other group knows that they aren't the same as we are and by applying these labels, not only do we make sure they know it, but that they know it's damned important to us that they know it. And people wonder how we end up with racist cliques. Of course, everyone has a right to be as racist as they want. What goes on in peoples' own heads is their own business. Doesn't make it something to aspire to but it's certainly everyone's right if that's how they want to think and be.
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It's an honest question that you ask brother, and I'll answer as honestly as I can. Why is it important to me to call myself an African-American? The complete answer would takes pages, the short answer is because I grew up in the sixties and I've lived during a most exciting period of life this country. I've lived and felt all the history of what people of African descent could not do. I not only watched it, I internalized it. History must ask why did it take 264 years for black Americans to be granted basic human rights in this country? Is that a racist question to ask .. or is it an uncomfortable question based on a statement of fact?

Without boring you with the long story :0) Suffice it to say that I remember a time when 'black' was a bad word .. even in the black community. Declaring myself African-American feels like triumph to me. Triumph over all that we weren't supposed to be. Survival through all that has been heaped upon African people from the moment we arrived at these shores.

I love this country, love its people, and want to see a better future for us all. I have zero problems with white people or any people. But I understand the fight is not over.

The difference is perspectives.
 
BlackAsCoal said:
It's an honest question that you ask brother, and I'll answer as honestly as I can. Why is it important to me to call myself an African-American? The complete answer would takes pages, the short answer is because I grew up in the sixties and I've lived during a most exciting period of life this country. I've lived and felt all the history of what people of African descent could not do. I not only watched it, I internalized it. History must ask why did it take 264 years for black Americans to be granted basic human rights in this country? Is that a racist question to ask .. or is it an uncomfortable question based on a statement of fact?

Without boring you with the long story :0) Suffice it to say that I remember a time when 'black' was a bad word .. even in the black community. Declaring myself African-American feels like triumph to me. Triumph over all that we weren't supposed to be. Survival through all that has been heaped upon African people from the moment we arrived at these shores.

I love this country, love its people, and want to see a better future for us all. I have zero problems with white people or any people. But I understand the fight is not over.

The difference is perspectives.
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And, I suppose with "the fight", it's not over till you and your brothers and sisters say it's over. So y'all let the white folks know when you're through fighting and maybe everyone can move forward together. Meanwhile, I've got to get by Cuban-American arse back down to the workshop to get some more production in today. :)
 
Curious that after all these years, you don't just think of yourselves as United Statesian.

In Europe as a rule, it only seems to take one generation or even less for people to feel assimilated. For example, I mix with black people every day who don't say they're African-French or West Indian-French but simply French. Similarly when I lived in the UK, people of all colours and backgrounds were just British. My own background is a tapestry but having arrived in the UK relatively young and obtained the citizenship I quickly became British. Similarly I now have French citizenship, hence I'm French with no complexes.

Of course I don't forget my roots. I could claim to be Italo-Slovene-Anglo-French. But that would be:
a) pretentious, and
b) unnecessary.

When are you United Statesians going to get over your hang-ups?
 
Ad_Captandum said:
Well, they are, if you go back far enough.
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Duh. Do you think anyone does not know that?

Using such to negate the existence of nations is stupid nihilism. Common elementary trolling. BS.
 
ecofarm said:
Duh. Do you think anyone does not know that?

Using such to negate the existence of nations is stupid nihilism. Common elementary trolling. BS.
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I'm not trolling you -- I'm using it as an example of how your argument falls into a 'reductio ad absurdum' trap.

You say that Afrikaners would not be considered African-American because they're not 'originally' from Africa -- they're just transplanted Dutchmen. I'm saying, how long do you need to stay in a place for you to be 'from' there? Surely the centuries the Afrikaners have been in Africa qualifies them as more African than the majority of Liberians, for example, as they're mostly transplanted slaves from the Americas?

The point of my example is, the Afrikaners ARE 'from' Africa, because they've been there so long. If you negate their claim based on the fact that half a millennium ago their ancestors were from the Netherlands, I can equally negate your claim that the Dutch are European -- they're just transplanted Africans.

The overall point is, making it about where your ancestors are 'from' is indeed racist, because you're essentially saying that your only criteria for determining where someone is 'from' is based on the colour of their skin.

If that were not true, you would obviously accept the Afrikaners as Africans, not Europeans.
 
WCH said:
Did I mention hyphenated nouns are divisive?
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German American Clubs and Greek festivals are not divisive.

Do you think the song god bless Texas is divisive, because its not saying God bless America?

Maybe instead of the Chicago Bears, Cincinnati Bengals, and New York Giants, etc. we should we have American Bears, American Giants, etc. unless you find calling American, American something or other, then we will just call them The Bears, The Giants, etc.
 
SheWolf said:
German American Clubs and Greek festivals are not divisive.

Do you think the song god bless Texas is divisive, because its not saying God bless America?

Maybe instead of the Chicago Bears, Cincinnati Bengals, and New York Giants, etc. we should we have American Bears, American Giants, etc. unless you find calling American, American something or other, then we will just call them The Bears, The Giants, etc.
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To those that are made uncomfortable by them, they certainly are. Heck even when a women chooses to use a hyphenated married name she's pissing someone off.

Not sure where you're going with the songs and team names.
 
If he wants to be called African American, why does it bother you?

I know somebody from Korea. She wants to be called Korean, not Asian, not Oriental, and she will get really pissed of you call her Chinese or Japanese. So I call her Korean out of personal respect for her.

If she told me call her Asian, I happily would call her Asian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many of you insist people wanting to be called xyz are divisive.

To refuse to call her Korean and expect her to confirm to my beliefs
as to what she should be called, that is actually divisive.

Some people want to be called Hispanic, some want to be called Latino, etc. There is a huge difference between Mexico and Columbia, Japan and Korea, and when you cannot see the obvious differences and talk to the people from those places as if they are all the same, be ready to piss some people off and look extremely ignorant in the process.


And there nothing wrong with saying you're a woman soldier either. There is nothing wrong with saying you're a mother and a daughter versus father and son.

I don't believe for a second that you don't identify as a man or a male, and that you fail to reason that it is and isn't acceptable for you to do certain things because of your gender.












Papa bull said:
Who said anything about truth being an adversary of social harmony? Do you really think it would be deceptive NOT to use hyphenated-American labels? Do you need to stick an "African-Hypehen" in front of your "American" label in order for me to not confuse you with "Euro-Americans"?

What benefit do we get from that except proper maintenance of the "us vs. them" mentality such labels help ensure? Whether your avatar actually reflects your status in active duty or not, assuming you are on active duty, do you think it's important that you describe yourself as a "female soldier" instead of just a soldier? It's the truth, isn't it? If you were a doctor, would you insist on being called a "female doctor"? Or an "African American Doctor"? It's the truth, so why not? As long as it's the truth, it can't be adversarial to social harmony, right?

Think about it.
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SheWolf said:
If he wants to be called African American, why does it bother you?

I know somebody from Korea. She wants to be called Korean, not Asian, not Oriental, and she will get really pissed of you call her Chinese or Japanese. So I call her Korean out of personal respect for her.

If she told me call her Asian, I happily would call her Asian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many of you insist people wanting to be called xyz are divisive.

To refuse to call her Korean and expect her to confirm to my beliefs
as to what she should be called, that is actually divisive.

Some people want to be called Hispanic, some want to be called Latino, etc. There is a huge difference between Mexico and Columbia, Japan and Korea, and when you cannot see the obvious differences and talk to the people from those places as if they are all the same, be ready to piss some people off and look extremely ignorant in the process.


And there nothing wrong with saying you're a woman soldier either. There is nothing wrong with saying you're a mother and a daughter versus father and son.

I don't believe for a second that you don't identify as a man or a male, and that you fail to reason that it is and isn't acceptable for you to do certain things because of your gender.
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I've said I don't care what someone else calls themselves. And it's true, I don't care about that. I just wonder why someone WANTS to make sure everyone knows they're not a regular American like everyone else, but some sort of "special" American, instead. I think it's very divisive but I don't really care that someone wants to be divisive. That's their business. I just wonder why it's so important to them to maintain a line of differentiation between "us" and "them".
 
Technically, I think it is flawed to put it that way. We have mapped the human genome and traced many modern peoples steps out of Africa.

You can now get your blood tested for those genomes, but.there are also biological differences in... errm... Asians, Europeans, and Africans that is found in the blood. Africans are the only people to not come in contact with earlier species like Neanderthals, and the rest if us interbred and intermixed with forerunners to homo sapiens.

That being said, in America its not unlikely that a lot of... ermm... white people have black in them, and black people have white in them. I am talking about the genomes in the blood, meaning, ya all possibly have more recent ancestors of the other race.

That is a lot closer to each other than trekking out of Africa.


and given that, I still don't get why you care what you fellow citizens call themselves.

BlackasCoal says he is proud of his African heritage, and that makes sense to me, but I don't feel its my cultural heritage, and I believe I came out of Africa too. But I don't associate myself with Africa on a personal level. I associate my cultural heritage with Eastern Europe.






shrubnose said:
As I've already said just about everyone on this planet has African ancestors if you look back far enough.




"The only race on this planet is the human race."
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I met Dave Chappell's mom, and that was pretty much her attitude too. She said, we are all Africans.


BlackAsCoal said:
:0) TRUTH be told .. everybody on this board and who has ever lived as a modern human is of African descent.

Truth be told, a sample of your mitochondria would reveal what region of Africa YOU come from. :0)

You could call yourself an African-American and have a point. :0)
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