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Question about race: Is a white south african, who immigrated to america....

Is a white South African, American citizen...considered an African american?

  • Total voters
    51
SheWolf said:
Often times it is needed to have an intellectual conversation without disrespectfully, inflaming people. If you use inflammatory language or talk like a partisan hack, then people focus on your language and words instead of the merit of your arguments.

But certain people on DP have no merit or arguments, and they are pretty much begging to be flamed.
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I think you are mistaken. PC creates a chilling effect on an intellectual conversation. An intellectual conversation generally requires truth. PC is contrary to truth
 
Superfly said:
Ask the women and children of My Lai what they think about Colin Powell. Oh, wait -- you can't. Most of them are dead.
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that's silly-most of them have no clue who Colin Powell is even if they are still alive.
 
SheWolf said:
It's hard to believe that people just give up their culture.

Maybe his parents started calling themselves American instead of Irish and Sicilian, but its hard to believe that he just threw away all their cultural ties. Its a huge part of one's identity. How does somebody just suddenly stop being Sicilian and start being American?

Its just impossible in what I have seen in my own parents.
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That's mostly why I don't believe his story. It sounds like something out of a Francis Ford Coppola movie with far more grammatical mistakes. The first generation hardly ever gives up cultural ties much less stop calling itself by its birth nationality. It just so happens that a guy with a bone to pick over what people label themselves has two immigrant parents who both decided to give up on their heritage? Lol. That's even less believable than being the adopted child of two first generation immigrants.
 
maybe you have a good point lol

That is a lot of cultural heritage being abandoned in one family.



Hatuey said:
That's mostly why I don't believe his story. It sounds like something out of a Francis Ford Coppola movie with far more grammatical mistakes. The first generation hardly ever gives up cultural ties much less stop calling itself by its birth nationality. It just so happens that a guy with a bone to pick over what people label themselves has two immigrant parents who both decided to give up on their heritage? Lol. That's even less believable than being the adopted child of two first generation immigrants.
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SheWolf said:
maybe you have a good point lol

That is a lot of cultural heritage being abandoned in one family.
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You'll find a lot of that here. Once someone in the forum admitted that a good reason to tell people on the internet that you're of a race other than white is because your opinions aren't questioned. Can you imagine? Just so happens that poster was - by their account - of a race other than white. Convenient isn't it? The internet is a convenient place for people to anonymously pretend to be something they're not to give their opinions more status. It's kind of stupid if you think about it. Pretending to be X so your opinion can be valued? Defeats the entire purpose of being against affirmative action.
 
TurtleDude said:
I see PC as intellectual timidity.
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Because you are extremely focused on the individual. From a sociologic standpoint, it's gracious in the effort of advancement.

It allows people to abdicate responsibility to call a spade a spade.
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It removes the throne of responsibility from the common denominator.
 
Cephus said:
Wait a minute, didn't you just say that it's a celebration of diversity to identify where your ancestors came from? Now you're telling him there's no such thing as Italian-Irish Americans? I guess it only counts for diversity when you apply it to minorities, huh?
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One notation allowed. That's the rule. Otherwise, you're a mutt.
 
Cephus said:
Since the whole of humanity sprang from Africa, absolutely everyone's ancestors are African.
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I tell my Kenyan friends that settling there is coming home.
 
ChezC3 said:
tell that to the minority of said county...;)
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In rural Kenya two years, I met/saw a white person perhaps 10 times (highway travelling, when in/near Nairobi a few days). I brought a mzungu from a college near Nairobi to the village for a few days. Other than myself, that's almost the only white person to stay in the village for days over the last decade or two (at least). Even that's not the same as being a minority, whites were privileged. It's like a coat that we can wear and remove (by changing location) whenever we want - not the same thing.



I should deal with multiple quotes in one post. Sorry 'bout that, kinda lazy.
 
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SheWolf said:
It's hard to believe that people just give up their culture.

Maybe his parents started calling themselves American instead of Irish and Sicilian, but its hard to believe that he just threw away all their cultural ties. Its a huge part of one's identity. How does somebody just suddenly stop being Sicilian and start being American?

Its just impossible in what I have seen in my own parents.
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He read into what I said too much. They no longer referred to themselves as the such, just American. We still eat Sicilian food on Sunday, 7 Fish, etc etc etc. They haven't lost their heritage, but they chose to embrace what was around them.

I think everyone is reading into what I'm writing way too much.
 
ChezC3 said:
tell that to the minority of said county...;)
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Context is global. White people can love it or leave it. For blacks, leave it isn't an option - not the same deal. County is petty, small minded. You reason as if blacks could go somewhere and unjustly oppress society racially. This is why "black racists" is stupid ****ing BS.
 
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Hatuey said:
The problem with your argument is that you're not asking for embracing. You're asking for assimilation. People can still maintain their cultural inheritance and still embrace it everyday. Which is what most people do. Giving up cultural inheritance for the sake of 'Murica (assimilation) is nonsense. Now, you can keep going on about your "debate" but there is no debate here. You want people to give up their cultural inheritance for the sake of an America which has never asked them to do so. Ever. The Irish weren't asked to give up their heritage. They haven't. The Asians haven't either. The only people you seem to have a bone with are blacks who care enough about their heritage to call themselves African-American.

Now, this is all aside from the fact that historically African-Americans can be considered second only to Native-Americans in terms of ties to this country. So what are you mad about? Self labeling? It's not like African-Americans are going around wearing dashikis and beating drums. So what is it about this self labeling that bothers you so much? Do you not get a news channel to keep you occupied with important matters?



Good for them. Everyone else doesn't have to give up their heritage simply because your "parents" decided they were no longer Sicilian & Irish. Actually, most people haven't given up on their cultural inheritance. Which is what I guess bothers you so much. Free country though. Deal with it. People label themselves based on the history of their people. My history isn't the same as a Native American's. I don't label myself a "Native-American". My history isn't the same as an Irish American's. So I don't label myself an Irish American. Don't really care about who does or doesn't either. :shrug:



Read first comment.



Embracing =/= assimilate. Your demand is for people to assimilate. Not embrace.



Read your last statement in the OP.
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I'm not mad about anything. I was just trying to start a dialogue. I think all this hyphenated non-sense is what divides America in the manner that it does. It's more of a problem than something to celebrate at this point. Look at how polarized this country is. Like we need another label to throw another line down the middle. Split in half, over, and over, and over again. Racism and division amongst Americans exists today, because it's allowed to exist, by creating lines just like this. I'm not saying abandon your heritage, but I would like to see people embrace the heritage being created around them. It's something you hardly see anymore in the media. Everyone wants to be something else.

Do I come off as hostile about this topic? I'm not trying to, honestly.

Off topic, why put the word parents in quotations? They aren't theoretical parents, not parents in question. They raised me, they are my parents...not really sure what you're getting at there. I suppose your definition might differ. Again, not mad, just curious.
 
MichaelJR said:
He read into what I said too much. They no longer referred to themselves as the such, just American. We still eat Sicilian food on Sunday, 7 Fish, etc etc etc. They haven't lost their heritage, but they chose to embrace what was around them.

I think everyone is reading into what I'm writing way too much.
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Lol, your waffling. Your family didn't embrace anything. They didn't suddenly switch Sicilian food for meatloaf, gravy and mashed 'tatoes. They didn't convert to the religion of 70% of the country and stop giving a **** about beef or fish on Sundays. They embraced a label and nothing else. If that's your idea of "embracing" America, your original OP is simply whining about people refusing to label themselves as you want them to. :shrug:
 
Hatuey said:
Lol, your waffling. Your family didn't embrace anything. They didn't suddenly switch Sicilian food for meatloaf, gravy and mashed 'tatoes. They didn't convert to the religion of 70% of the country and stop giving a **** about beef or fish on Sundays. They embraced a label and nothing else. If that's your idea of "embracing" America, your original OP is simply whining about people refusing to label themselves as you want them to. :shrug:
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Because they continued to eat food they knew how to cook?

And again, family in italics. I thought you liberals embraced such open minded family structures, the ones where biology is irrelevant. Rather close minded are we?

Nothing like the tasty liberal hypocrisy to make that pretty icing on the cake.
 
MichaelJR said:
I'm not mad about anything. I'm not mad about anything. I was just trying to start a dialogue. I think all this hyphenated non-sense is what divides America in the manner that it does. It's more of a problem than something to celebrate at this point. Look at how polarized this country is. Like we need another label to throw another line down the middle. Split in half, over, and over, and over again. Racism and division amongst Americans exists today, because it's allowed to exist, by creating lines just like this. I'm not saying abandon your heritage, but I would like to see people embrace the heritage being created around them. It's something you hardly see anymore in the media. Everyone wants to be something else.

Do I come off as hostile about this topic? I'm not trying to, honestly.

Off topic, why put the word parents in quotations? They raised me, they are my parents...not really sure what you're getting at there. Again, not mad, just curious.

Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message
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Red - Read your OP.

Blue - Red herring fallacy followed by non-sequitur. America's division is far more pronounced among political lines & metropolitan. Would you support us all becoming Democrats or Republicans in order to stop political divisions? What about if we all moved to the country side/cities in order to avoid that divide? Your solution is inconsistent with the problem. People have divisions because that's what happens in a country of 300 million people. Not everyone will fit the cookie cutter mold your "parents" so conveniently fit.

Green - People don't want to be something else, people are something else. Again, Irish Americans are not African-Americans. We don't share the same history nor the same struggles, nor even the same general culture. We are different whether you understand it or not. Africans in different countries are different from one another. Europeans in different countries are different from one another. You even have regional based differences. Bavarians aren't the same as Saxons and they all mark their differences. So why should America be any different? Because your "parents" adopted someone and then decided they'd stop calling themselves by their nationality? Lol. Spare me the emotional appeal to neo-nationalism. The divisions won't stop because everyone stops calling themselves Insert-here-Americans.
 
MichaelJR said:
Because they continued to eat food they knew how to cook?
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Your family's embrace of "America" only extended to a label? Not much of an embrace once you put it under a microscope is it? Did the Sicilian side stop speaking Sicilian? Okay, they usually do in most movies so we'll let you say yes to that one. Did they change their last names to sound more "American"? Why the fish on weekends? You're an American now. We BBQ on Sundays. If you don't do those things, the subjective standard on what it means to embrace America falls apart. Why stop at a label right?
 
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ecofarm said:
I tell my Kenyan friends that settling there is coming home.
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You can tell that to anyone since nobody is more "African" than anyone else.
 
ecofarm said:
Context is global. White people can love it or leave it. For blacks, leave it isn't an option - not the same deal. County is petty, small minded. You reason as if blacks could go somewhere and unjustly oppress society racially. This is why "black racists" is stupid ****ing BS.
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Well, I wrote this whole long self righteous post full of anecdotal evidence but decided to scratch it, figuring I would try a different approach.

Where can white people go that black people can't? Have you ever worked in an environment where you were the minority, other co-workers less qualified, less skilled, but the same color as the boss. got away with murder, even those the boss didn't really care for received preferential treatment, and they were black and the oppressed person was white?

I can think of at least two Calypso Louie acolytes right now who have a bow tie in one pocket and a bean pie in the other, at the ready, waiting for their chance at giving Whitey a taste of his own medicine...in some for instances this has already happened.

Let me ask an off handed but related question, have you ever seen White Man's Burden w/ John Travolta and Harry Belafonte?

The real object of this whole little game is called control and power. White's currently are in control and have the power, to think that any other race should they gain control and power would do anything different is sheer naivete. I'm sorry but it is. To argue otherwise is engaging in racism of another sort. Whereas you would be under the impression that white people are intrinsically evil, (them blue-eyed devils) and those non-white races are intrinsically good and altruistic.

I'm not saying you are necessarily making this argument, but you are coming dangerously close.(between both responses you gave)

We also have to be sure we clearly identify racism vs. prejudice based on a shared self-concept.

White man, Brooks Brothers suit , looks kinda like my uncle Pete = Safe

Black man, saggy pants, braids, looks kinda like the 2nd felon on AMW you watched last night = Danger

This isn't racism, but people confuse this for racism

The first guy could be the Bay Harbor Butcher, the second an Investment Banker on vacation for all anyone knows but it is the way we identify others with ourselves and the natural attraction aversion mental games we play.

So if I'm a store owner and the second guy comes in and lingers, am I racist for being suspicious? No.

But again, people will say that that is racism.

To really have any sort of meaningful dialog about race, racism, et al, we really need to set parameters and definitions, and most important we have to be able to agree on them, otherwise its all just anecdotes and talking past each other.

I kinda went off on a tangent here, but to make a final point if context is global we are all in the minority unless we're Han...;)
 
What exactly are you complaining about? You seemed to take issue with people identifying with their cultural heritage, and now you seem to think its impossible not to. I am confused, other than you saying people should just be called American.


MichaelJR said:
He read into what I said too much. They no longer referred to themselves as the such, just American. We still eat Sicilian food on Sunday, 7 Fish, etc etc etc. They haven't lost their heritage, but they chose to embrace what was around them.

I think everyone is reading into what I'm writing way too much.
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MichaelJR said:
Here's an interesting take on things. I think of race as B.S. It's something played on by people with an agenda. I think of us as humans. So this isn't a race ploy, I suppose I want to prove a point here.


Is a white of skin color, south african...that immigrates to the United States....now considered an African American?


Put that in your pipe and smoke it race baiters on both sides.
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I would say yes. African doesn't mean skin color but that a person comes from that country, so yes. Whereas most African Americans in this country are really not so much really "African" Americans.

I have ancestors from Ireland but I don't call myself an Irish-American.
 
TurtleDude said:
I think you are mistaken. PC creates a chilling effect on an intellectual conversation. An intellectual conversation generally requires truth. PC is contrary to truth
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I disagree. I find PC to be more truthful. It examines all of the nuance and sociological factors involved in the discussion, while non-PC is just neanderthal grunting based on emotion and without intellectual examination.
 
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