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Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster?

Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Depends

    Votes: 11 12.9%

  • No

    Votes: 73 85.9%
  • Total voters
    85
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
Pick a position already. Canada's gun laws prevent violence, US gun laws DONT prevent violence. It's all the same thing. It's not at ALL the same thing.

Bottom line...whatever argument is convenient, right?
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough.
My position on gun control is this:
Trying to reduce crime by reducing the numbers of firearms doesn't work. On t he other hand, the assertion that we need more guns in the hands of the "good guys" in order to discourage the bad guys doesn't really work either.

Therefore, there must be other factors besides gun control that influence murder rates.

Now, our neighbor to the north has a significantly lower murder rate than we do here in the USA. This is not likely due to any restrictive gun laws. The culture of the two countries is at least similar. Therefore, there must be another factor at work.
Could be poverty.
could be the war on drugs.
could be gang activity.
Could be something else, or all of the above.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
OK, fair enough.
My position on gun control is this:
Trying to reduce crime by reducing the numbers of firearms doesn't work. On t he other hand, the assertion that we need more guns in the hands of the "good guys" in order to discourage the bad guys doesn't really work either.

Therefore, there must be other factors besides gun control that influence murder rates.

Now, our neighbor to the north has a significantly lower murder rate than we do here in the USA. This is not likely due to any restrictive gun laws. The culture of the two countries is at least similar. Therefore, there must be another factor at work.
Could be poverty.
could be the war on drugs.
could be gang activity.
Could be something else, or all of the above.
Click to expand...
As you have very often now pointed out..demographics matter. Thats why it is silly for anyone to suggest "why...sure gun control could work. Just look at Japan." The US isnt a relatively small island and we cant manage and maintain border security to stop the flow of 20-30 million PEOPLE, let alone the smuggling of drugs, guns, etc. And true enough...all of those other factors come into play. My own community has probably more guns per capita than any gang infested inner city in any state in the country. We also have a virtual zero crime rate and are fairly affluent. SO...maybe THATS where the emphasis should be, rather than the continued blathering about the seizure of guns. People that use guns in the commission of a crime have already very clearly demonstrated their intent to refuse to comply with laws. Therefore...a continued effort at increasing laws against guns will target the one population group in this country that CLEARLY has demonstrated they are not a threat to community or society.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
As you have very often now pointed out..demographics matter. Thats why it is silly for anyone to suggest "why...sure gun control could work. Just look at Japan." The US isnt a relatively small island and we cant manage and maintain border security to stop the flow of 20-30 million PEOPLE, let alone the smuggling of drugs, guns, etc. And true enough...all of those other factors come into play. My own community has probably more guns per capita than any gang infested inner city in any state in the country. We also have a virtual zero crime rate and are fairly affluent. SO...maybe THATS where the emphasis should be, rather than the continued blathering about the seizure of guns. People that use guns in the commission of a crime have already very clearly demonstrated their intent to refuse to comply with laws. Therefore...a continued effort at increasing laws against guns will target the one population group in this country that CLEARLY has demonstrated they are not a threat to community or society.
Click to expand...

Exactly. the law abiding citizen who has guns is not a problem, and criminals don't care what the laws are. So let's look at other factors:

I posit that the war on drugs is a major factor. Much of the violence is due to gangs fighting over "turf", by which they mean territory in which to sell drugs. Violence on the US/Mexico border has escalated dramatically since drug smuggling has become so prominent.
We saw this same sort of thing during prohibition, with gangs shooting it out in the streets with "tommy guns."
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
Exactly. the law abiding citizen who has guns is not a problem, and criminals don't care what the laws are. So let's look at other factors:

I posit that the war on drugs is a major factor. Much of the violence is due to gangs fighting over "turf", by which they mean territory in which to sell drugs. Violence on the US/Mexico border has escalated dramatically since drug smuggling has become so prominent.
We saw this same sort of thing during prohibition, with gangs shooting it out in the streets with "tommy guns."
Click to expand...
I agree that the war on drugs is a dismal failure and should be completely re-thought. I dont however believe that is the answer to our violent crime problem. I would suggest that if we are to see REAL positive growth and change we have to do a combination of things pretty much simultaneously. We have to reinvigorate our industrial base and create meaningful and vital middle income jobs, increase school standards, have a huge community wide push for personal responsibility, build LOTS of new prisons, and make draconian prison sentences for anyone committing a violent crime. That requires the bleeding hearts to stop wringing their hands about the percentages of whoever is in prison. If they commit a violent criminal act they should go away for a loooooooong long time. We need a societal commitment to positive changes, not the continued mindless charade of 'care' that has created much of the mess we currently have. EARNED economic prosperity is the answer.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

No.

That's my final answer.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
I agree that the war on drugs is a dismal failure and should be completely re-thought. I dont however believe that is the answer to our violent crime problem. I would suggest that if we are to see REAL positive growth and change we have to do a combination of things pretty much simultaneously. We have to reinvigorate our industrial base and create meaningful and vital middle income jobs, increase school standards, have a huge community wide push for personal responsibility, build LOTS of new prisons, and make draconian prison sentences for anyone committing a violent crime. That requires the bleeding hearts to stop wringing their hands about the percentages of whoever is in prison. If they commit a violent criminal act they should go away for a loooooooong long time. We need a societal commitment to positive changes, not the continued mindless charade of 'care' that has created much of the mess we currently have. EARNED economic prosperity is the answer.
Click to expand...

OK, earned economic prosperity could be one of the answers. As for the other factors:

reinvigorate our industrial base and create meaningful and vital middle income jobs" would no doubt help bring about earned economic prosperity.

"increase school standards" We did that, first with the state standards, now moving to common core standards. did that affect the murder rate?

"build LOTS of new prisons, and make draconian prison sentences for anyone committing a violent crime".
but we have more prisoners now than any other nation on Earth. With about 5% of the world's population, we have around 25% of the prisoners. Simply locking people up doesn't seem to work. Maybe the people we have locked up aren't the ones we need to have locked up, or maybe there needs to be an alternative.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
OK, earned economic prosperity could be one of the answers. As for the other factors:

reinvigorate our industrial base and create meaningful and vital middle income jobs" would no doubt help bring about earned economic prosperity.

"increase school standards" We did that, first with the state standards, now moving to common core standards. did that affect the murder rate?

"build LOTS of new prisons, and make draconian prison sentences for anyone committing a violent crime".
but we have more prisoners now than any other nation on Earth. With about 5% of the world's population, we have around 25% of the prisoners. Simply locking people up doesn't seem to work. Maybe the people we have locked up aren't the ones we need to have locked up, or maybe there needs to be an alternative.
Click to expand...
We havent done ANY of it at the same time. Complex problems require complex solutions. Thats part of our problem with the whole immigration thing. We arent really trying to FIX anything...just running around sticking fingers in dykes.

And I completely disagree with you about the prison thing. Whole I think we both would agree drug laws should be revamped and prison probably isnt the appropriate place for drug users, the fact remains (and is evidenced daily) that not only do we NOT have enough prisons, but we havent put enough people there. I dont give a **** about the numbers and am frankly a little curious as to why YOU do. It doesnt matter if there are 5 or 50 prisons in every state...the number of prisons does not CREATE violent criminals and there should be enough to HOUSE violent criminals and hellz YES...if those violent offenders were locked away for say...30 years on top of every sentence as a mandatory minimum for the use of a weapon in the commission of a violent crime, we would ABSOLUTELY see less violent crime in this country.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

sav sniper.jpgi would try my best to secure them myself i am sure for some reason the police would misplace or use my guns for themseves mainly my colt ca ar15 and maybe my savage 308 fluted sniper ....probably never get them back
 
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Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

sounds like a nice place for zimmerman he can get rid of some of his anger there...and a hell of a lot of blacks to pick on lol
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

plutonium said:
View attachment 67157562i would try my best to secure them myself i am sure for some reason the police would misplace or use my guns for themseves mainly my colt ca ar15 and maybe my savage 308 fluted sniper ....probably never get them back
Click to expand...

Posting pictures on the internet will not help that security.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
We havent done ANY of it at the same time. Complex problems require complex solutions. Thats part of our problem with the whole immigration thing. We arent really trying to FIX anything...just running around sticking fingers in dykes.
Click to expand...

yes, you have that right, especially if by "we" you mean Congress and/or the federal government. That entity is dysfunctional.

VanceMack said:
And I completely disagree with you about the prison thing. Whole I think we both would agree drug laws should be revamped and prison probably isnt the appropriate place for drug users, the fact remains (and is evidenced daily) that not only do we NOT have enough prisons, but we havent put enough people there. I dont give a **** about the numbers and am frankly a little curious as to why YOU do. It doesnt matter if there are 5 or 50 prisons in every state...the number of prisons does not CREATE violent criminals and there should be enough to HOUSE violent criminals and hellz YES...if those violent offenders were locked away for say...30 years on top of every sentence as a mandatory minimum for the use of a weapon in the commission of a violent crime, we would ABSOLUTELY see less violent crime in this country.
Click to expand...

The issue is cost. Keeping people locked up is expensive, any way you look at it. Now, if we could dump out the people who are there for drug offenses and replace them with violent offenders who need to be kept locked up for the protection of the rest of us, then I'd agree.

What is the purpose of prisons? Is it to punish lawbreakers, to protect us from violent people, simply to make money for the prison industry, or perhaps all three? If it's to punish lawbreakers, there may be less expensive ways of accomplishing that. Protecting us from violent people is totally appropriate. Making money for the prison industry has become a de facto reason for building more prisons.

and drug addiction needs to be seen as a medical problem, not a legal one.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
yes, you have that right, especially if by "we" you mean Congress and/or the federal government. That entity is dysfunctional.



The issue is cost. Keeping people locked up is expensive, any way you look at it. Now, if we could dump out the people who are there for drug offenses and replace them with violent offenders who need to be kept locked up for the protection of the rest of us, then I'd agree.

What is the purpose of prisons? Is it to punish lawbreakers, to protect us from violent people, simply to make money for the prison industry, or perhaps all three? If it's to punish lawbreakers, there may be less expensive ways of accomplishing that. Protecting us from violent people is totally appropriate. Making money for the prison industry has become a de facto reason for building more prisons.

and drug addiction needs to be seen as a medical problem, not a legal one.
Click to expand...
We agree on the whole prison for drug users thing. Thats not relevant. The problem is violent criminals. Clear out the drug users (keep those in for committing crimes like DUI, theft to get drugs, etc) but put violent offenders away for extraordinarily long periods of time. That, coupled with real economic opportunity, WILL make a difference.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
We agree on the whole prison for drug users thing. Thats not relevant. The problem is violent criminals. Clear out the drug users (keep those in for committing crimes like DUI, theft to get drugs, etc) but put violent offenders away for extraordinarily long periods of time. That, coupled with real economic opportunity, WILL make a difference.
Click to expand...

Yes, you have it mostly right. Building more prisons is just an expensive boondoggle, but do what you just suggested, and we'll have a lot less violent crime.
As for theft to obtain drugs, a shorter term that involved learning to work, along with learning a new trade, would serve us better.

If drugs were legalized, then few would steal to support a drug habit.

As for DUI, take away their license. If they continue to drive, take away their vehicles. The goal has to be to keep them off the road, not to keep them locked up at public expense.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
Yes, you have it mostly right. Building more prisons is just an expensive boondoggle, but do what you just suggested, and we'll have a lot less violent crime.
As for theft to obtain drugs, a shorter term that involved learning to work, along with learning a new trade, would serve us better.

If drugs were legalized, then few would steal to support a drug habit.

As for DUI, take away their license. If they continue to drive, take away their vehicles. The goal has to be to keep them off the road, not to keep them locked up at public expense.
Click to expand...
Not so...unless of course you plan on making drugs available and free. People dont steal because drugs are illegal, they steal to get money to buy more drugs. And dont blame cost...cost is lower with an illegal market than it would be with a legal market.

Sorry...I dont give free passes. DUI should not involve a slap on the wrist. Putting peoples lives at risk demonstrates as great a threat to society as does willfully committing a violent act. (9,878 people killed in total in 2011, In 2007, nearly 13,000 people were killed in drunk driving related crashes, each year, approximately half a million people are injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present). Considering the repeat offender rate and that fines are already high, slaps on the wrist just dont cut it.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
Not so...unless of course you plan on making drugs available and free. People dont steal because drugs are illegal, they steal to get money to buy more drugs. And dont blame cost...cost is lower with an illegal market than it would be with a legal market.

Sorry...I dont give free passes. DUI should not involve a slap on the wrist. Putting peoples lives at risk demonstrates as great a threat to society as does willfully committing a violent act. (9,878 people killed in total in 2011, In 2007, nearly 13,000 people were killed in drunk driving related crashes, each year, approximately half a million people are injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present). Considering the repeat offender rate and that fines are already high, slaps on the wrist just dont cut it.
Click to expand...

Drugs would be more expensive if they were legalized? No, I don't think so. Compare the cost of a pack of smokes, for example, with the cost of a like number of doobies. They would be a lot cheaper unless, of course, prohibitively high taxes were imposed.

As for drunk drivers, sure, they need to be punished. They also need to be taken off of the road. Isn't there a less expensive way of doing this than putting them in jail for long prison sentences?
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
Drugs would be more expensive if they were legalized? No, I don't think so. Compare the cost of a pack of smokes, for example, with the cost of a like number of doobies. They would be a lot cheaper unless, of course, prohibitively high taxes were imposed.

As for drunk drivers, sure, they need to be punished. They also need to be taken off of the road. Isn't there a less expensive way of doing this than putting them in jail for long prison sentences?
Click to expand...
People can score drugs cheaply today. Its not the cost that is the problem...it is that addicts typically cant hold down jobs to pay for their addiction.

OK...how about boot camp for DUI offenders, and anyone that skips out can then go spend time with the playmates at the big boy prison. Deal?
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
People can score drugs cheaply today. Its not the cost that is the problem...it is that addicts typically cant hold down jobs to pay for their addiction.

OK...how about boot camp for DUI offenders, and anyone that skips out can then go spend time with the playmates at the big boy prison. Deal?
Click to expand...

Deal.

How about not categorizing drugs as we do now?

The drugs that keep people from holding down jobs would be perhaps crack (unless you're the mayor of Toronto, of course) or meth, the really bad stuff. I'd be for allowing them to have their drugs cheaply (surely, they could be manufactured at low cost, were it legal to do so) under medical supervision, with the proviso that they can opt for rehab if they want to. If they don't want to, then rehab won't work anyway, but then, neither will prison.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
Deal.

How about not categorizing drugs as we do now?

The drugs that keep people from holding down jobs would be perhaps crack (unless you're the mayor of Toronto, of course) or meth, the really bad stuff. I'd be for allowing them to have their drugs cheaply (surely, they could be manufactured at low cost, were it legal to do so) under medical supervision, with the proviso that they can opt for rehab if they want to. If they don't want to, then rehab won't work anyway, but then, neither will prison.
Click to expand...
Wait...you are for not only legally allowing people to do drugs but also for subsidizing them...the only way they can "have their drugs cheaply"????????????
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
Wait...you are for not only legally allowing people to do drugs but also for subsidizing them...the only way they can "have their drugs cheaply"????????????
Click to expand...

I don't think they would have to be subsidized. I think they could be produced pretty cheaply if they didn't have to be underground. How much does an aspirin really cost, anything, in fact, that isn't a proprietary medication but can be had in a generic.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
I don't think they would have to be subsidized. I think they could be produced pretty cheaply if they didn't have to be underground. How much does an aspirin really cost, anything, in fact, that isn't a proprietary medication but can be had in a generic.
Click to expand...
Cigarettes hardly cost anything to 'produce'...but they still cost...what...5-6 bucks a pack these days?
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
Cigarettes hardly cost anything to 'produce'...but they still cost...what...5-6 bucks a pack these days?
Click to expand...

Probably about that. It's mostly due to taxes, of course.

How does that compare to the cost of illegal drugs?
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
Probably about that. It's mostly due to taxes, of course.

How does that compare to the cost of illegal drugs?
Click to expand...
Looking at projected estimates, it aint pretty...

“based on a production cost of $2 per gram… the after-tax retail price will be $17 per gram, or $482 per ounce. Another projection, based on a production cost of $3 per gram, puts the retail price at $25.50 per gram, or $723 per ounce.”

Welcome to Forbes

Compared to what is projected today to be about $28.00 an oz. I cant really relate to any of this stuff...back in the 70's a 5 finger lid would go for about 20 bucks...and thats the last time I could give you any personal feel for the market.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
Looking at projected estimates, it aint pretty...

“based on a production cost of $2 per gram… the after-tax retail price will be $17 per gram, or $482 per ounce. Another projection, based on a production cost of $3 per gram, puts the retail price at $25.50 per gram, or $723 per ounce.”

Welcome to Forbes

Compared to what is projected today to be about $28.00 an oz. I cant really relate to any of this stuff...back in the 70's a 5 finger lid would go for about 20 bucks...and thats the last time I could give you any personal feel for the market.
Click to expand...

That's factoring in more than 800% markup.

With that kind of a markup, gas would cost more here than it does in Europe.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

Dittohead not! said:
That's factoring in more than 800% markup.

With that kind of a markup, gas would cost more here than it does in Europe.
Click to expand...
Not my figures. Not Forbes either. Thats what is projected. Heck...the wise man will develop a little agro-skillz and grow their own.
 
Re: Would You Surrender Your Firearms To Police Voluntarily During A Natural Disaster

VanceMack said:
Not my figures. Not Forbes either. Thats what is projected. Heck...the wise man will develop a little agro-skillz and grow their own.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
And competition will cut back that 800% markup some, too.
 
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