Does the Roman Polanski affair affect your view of the French?[W:72]

clownboy said:

Heh, open mouth and remove all doubt eh? They did indeed help him to avoid arrest AND hindered efforts to take him into custody. That falls under aid and abet.

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lol cb. You're better than this. Aid and Abet legal definition of Aid and Abet. Aid and Abet synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary. "To assist another in the commission of a crime by words or conduct."

You're confusing harboring with aiding and abetting. Words have meaning. You should use them.

Actually no, it is more significant than that, or should be to our government. We have an extradition treaty with France. If they are not going to honor that then our government should make them feel the consequences of violating said treaty. We should have cut off trade back when he first fled and they refused.

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It's entirely unimportant. Just like when the US engaged in Operation Paperclip.

Peter Grimm said:

You liberals normally just annoy me a little, but this is outright disgusting. You're going to rubber stamp the rape of a 13 year old girl simply because your buddies, the French, have done so?

Disgusting.

So what if the girl (now woman, thanks to the passage of time) has tried to put it behind her? What do you expect her to do? She's not going to get any closure on this from the justice system thanks to the French. What would you expect her to do, for her own sanity?? OF COURSE she is going to say and do what she is doing.

That doesn't mean pedophilia and rape should go completely unpunished. My goodness.

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The French are your buddies, too, unless you're anti-American.

Seriously, I can't believe how much anti-French sentiment there is among ignorant right-wing nuts in the US -- you all should be praising France, not decrying it. France, historically, has been and is probably the US's most reliable ally, and indeed without France there would be no US in the first place.

Further to that, the French political system and the US political system and general culture are remarkably similar -- both countries fought to overthrow tyrants, establish republicanism, and served as a liberal bulwark against reactionaries across the world, and continue to do so today. French and American foreign policy are largely identical in the broad strokes, and, along with Britain, France and the US represent the general trend of Western civilisation and work actively together to promote it.

I just don't get why some conservatives hate France. Was it the Iraq War thing? Well that went realllly well. But then why isn't there similar hate for Britain, who refused to join the US in Vietnam?

I suspect it's rivalry -- given so many cultural, historical and current similarities, there's bound to be some brotherly rivalry. Each believes it represents the best form of Western civilisation.

Even so, the vitriol is a bit much, for so close an ally, no?

I wonder if the scenario were flipped, if many of you would feel the same way.

What if, hypothetically speaking, a 43 year old Texas oil tycoon with some relation to the Bush family raped a 13 year old girl and used his power and connections to flee to Israel, where they refused to extradite him.

I'd be willing to bet that the very same people who are defending Polanski would be the first to stand up in outrage.

Guys, your political views are important, I get that. Nothing is important enough to justify child abuse and rape. This goes beyond politics.

OldWorldOrder said:

We have laws to have a generally orderly society. Oftentimes, for international relations purposes, that's ignored.



But he got arrested...are you saying he wasn't arrested? France just isn't sending him back. The US can send the FBI and try to arrest him if they want. Why don't they?

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Extraditions don't work that way. They never do.

Also, this isn't a federal case.

Peter Grimm said:

Extraditions don't work that way. They never do.

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No one said they did. It was a question to get you to start thinking about it. Why doesn't the FBI send someone? Is France protecting him? Or just not helping the US by handing him over? Why do you even care more than the victim?

Also, this isn't a federal case.

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Maybe we could send the Erik Estrada and CHiPs

Peter Grimm said:

Don't think that I don't see it from your perspective, I do. I understand what you're saying. I just look at it a little differently.

I think that she's been able to overcome this is a testament to her strength and resilience. I admire her for that. She's no longer a child, but a grown woman. To me, at the heart of this issue is the protection of children.

While I respect this woman's point of view, to me the most important question we need to be asking is what needs to be done to protect every other 13 year old girl out there from predators like this. The ones who are still children and who need our protection.

Here's how I see what happened. A sick 43 year old man sexually assaulted a child. He was able to get away with it because he is rich, powerful, and well-connected.

I think it's important to recognize that for what it is. What's to stop it from happening again? What's to stop another wealthy, powerful, connected man from treating another young girl like a piece of trash?

There is nothing to stop that, because we haven't shown that we're strong enough or willing enough to do anything about these sorts of people. They just walk between the raindrops.

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You look at it a lot differently. You're spinning your wheels over something the victim has moved past. The French government is on the clock. It's up to them to protect little girls since they refuse to allow the U.S. to have him back.

Actually there is nothing to stop wealthy men from doing exactly as they please. Arresting Polanski would do nothing to change that. Wealthy connected men did it before him and even after Polanski's name was spread across the world as a child rapist. It's the way of the world, and it's wrong, but what you want, will not change that.

While I hate that the full weight of the law didn't flatten him, if the victim is ok, I'm ok.

Peter Grimm said:

A bit of background. Roman Polanski, a famous American film director, drugged and raped a 13 year old child. The child was an aspiring actress, and he was a powerful film director.

He was 43 years old when he forced himself on the little girl.

After being found guilty in a California court, Polanski fled to France hours before he was to be formally sentenced. The sentence was expected to be jail time.

To this day, France refuses to extradite Polanski. Polanski lives a comfortable life in a French chateau, drinking wine and continuing to direct movies. Meanwhile a young girl's life was forever scarred.

The French will not extradite him because they disapprove of the fact that the USA allows the death penalty (even though this is not a case where the death penalty would apply). They say they will extradite him only after the USA makes the death penalty illegal.

How, if at all, does this case affect your perception of France?

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Polanski is not just a famous (and actually very, very good) American and French director. He is also one of the most famous Poles living. Deservedly.
So, as a Pole, I have some emotional stake.

Now: this excellent movie-maker also happens to be a criminal. It is a fact. And his crime is not something like cheating on taxes or selling a bundle of dope. It is serious, by any civilized standard. Unless some new surprising evidence surfaces in the case, the man should be in prison. Period.

Jurisdictional boundaries are all fine and cool, but surely no French father would want his daughter to be raped by some American middle-aged creep - and see him escape punishment.

Ad_Captandum said:

The French are your buddies, too, unless you're anti-American.

Seriously, I can't believe how much anti-French sentiment there is among ignorant right-wing nuts in the US -- you all should be praising France, not decrying it. France, historically, has been and is probably the US's most reliable ally, and indeed without France there would be no US in the first place.

Further to that, the French political system and the US political system and general culture are remarkably similar -- both countries fought to overthrow tyrants, establish republicanism, and served as a liberal bulwark against reactionaries across the world, and continue to do so today. French and American foreign policy are largely identical in the broad strokes, and, along with Britain, France and the US represent the general trend of Western civilisation and work actively together to promote it.

I just don't get why some conservatives hate France. Was it the Iraq War thing? Well that went realllly well. But then why isn't there similar hate for Britain, who refused to join the US in Vietnam?

I suspect it's rivalry -- given so many cultural, historical and current similarities, there's bound to be some brotherly rivalry. Each believes it represents the best form of Western civilisation.

Even so, the vitriol is a bit much, for so close an ally, no?

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I think I described my view on France as "moderately negative." I think that's overall a fair assessment.

As you've said, there are many things to love about French culture. In fact, I've lived outside Lyon for a short time. The French people, their history, culture, language, art and cuisine are a gift to the world.

That said, their politicians and government are like 7 year old children who have been given drum sets for Christmas.

Out of one side of their mouth, they decry decry decry any and all military action proposed or undertaken by the United States. Then, they turn around and use their own military in places like Mali.

Out of one side of their mouth, they clamor for green energy, and wag their finger at those darn polluting Americans for not signing Kyoto. All while ignoring the fact that France is more dependent on nuclear energy than any other nation on earth, and if any of these plants melt down, they would have an unmitigated environmental disaster on their hands.

France only whines about America's military because France doesn't have the most guns. France only whines about green energy because France doesn't have native oil and gas resources. It's the typical French politics and it's always been that way.


I remember when I was a teenager living in Chile, the French decided to break the global nuclear test treaty and test a nuclear weapon on a nearby island.... completely destroying it. Mind you, Chile is no where near France. Many native Chileans had to move their homes, and to this day the Chilean government still has to do cleanups and tests.

Could the French have tested this weapon near their own homes? No, they had to go do it outside someone else's, simply because the island they bombed was one of their colonial relics.

And yet France is the first ones to talk about green this and green that.

I think the world is lucky that we're living in an era where the French are marginalized. They haven't matured one bit from their revolution/Napoleonic days and good riddance.

Peter Grimm said:

I wonder if the scenario were flipped, if many of you would feel the same way.

What if, hypothetically speaking, a 43 year old Texas oil tycoon with some relation to the Bush family raped a 13 year old girl and used his power and connections to flee to Israel, where they refused to extradite him.

I'd be willing to bet that the very same people who are defending Polanski would be the first to stand up in outrage.

Guys, your political views are important, I get that. Nothing is important enough to justify child abuse and rape. This goes beyond politics.

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No one, that I have seen, has made this an issue of liberal vs. conservative. No reason to now.

With one exception, I have only seen support for the victim and no one is justifying anything. We recognize the practical realities and since the victim herself is not in an hysterical state over this, I don't know why we should be.

Gina said:

You look at it a lot differently. You're spinning your wheels over something the victim has moved past. The French government is on the clock. It's up to them to protect little girls since they refuse to allow the U.S. to have him back.

Actually there is nothing to stop wealthy men from doing exactly as they please. Arresting Polanski would do nothing to change that. Wealthy connected men did it before him and even after Polanski's name was spread across the world as a child rapist. It's the way of the world, and it's wrong, but what you want, will not change that.

While I hate that the full weight of the law didn't flatten him, if the victim is ok, I'm ok.

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Arresting Polanski would set a precedent. It would be an example that the law is in charge, not the elites of society.

Because as you acknowledge, that's a fundamental struggle.

That's a culturally defining question every society has to examine within itself, and it's a lot bigger and broader in scope than one woman and one slimy old film director.

Roman Polanski was just your typical Hollywood Left limousine liberal.

Scuttlebutt in the Hollywood Hills is that Polanski is on President Obama's "A" list for being pardon on January 19, 2017.

Peter Grimm said:

Arresting Polanski would set a precedent. It would be an example that the law is in charge, not the elites of society.

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To who? At least when we jailed the Enron folks there was a sense that it mattered.

Gina said:

No one, that I have seen, has made this an issue of liberal vs. conservative. No reason to now.

With one exception, I have only seen support for the victim and no one is justifying anything. We recognize the practical realities and since the victim herself is not in an hysterical state over this, I don't know why we should be.

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The left has a fascination and endearment with all things Hollywood, French, and high society. Many of the same Hollywood execs who bankroll Democratic nominees were the ones who came out in support of Polanski. Many Hollywood stars.

So maybe I'm making unwarranted assumptions, but from having this discussion in the past I've found that typically only hard-line liberal types tend to want to excuse Polanski or want to find a reason to look the other way.

Although, times are changing. The latest poll I saw had 80% of Americans AND 80% OF FRENCHMEN in favor of extradition.

The capitalized is important, because let's give credit where credit is due. The French people have the right idea, it's their government that's corrupt.

Peter Grimm said:

Arresting Polanski would set a precedent. It would be an example that the law is in charge, not the elites of society.

Because as you acknowledge, that's a fundamental struggle.

That's a culturally defining question every society has to examine within itself, and it's a lot bigger and broader in scope than one woman and one slimy old film director.

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Please carry on. We are at an end. No precedent is ever set over an issue like this. There are winners and losers (though I think they are scum no matter what) in the gamble that the wealthy and connected take when they chose to break the law.

I think using this one case as a culturally defining moment, is overstating it a bit.

APACHERAT said:

Roman Polanski was just your typical Hollywood Left limousine liberal.

Scuttlebutt in the Hollywood Hills is that Polanski is on President Obama's "A" list for being pardon on January 19, 2017.

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Ok, now someone has made a political issue of it.

If any of that was true, he should have been on Clinton's list in 2001.

Peter Grimm said:

The left has a fascination and endearment with all things Hollywood, French, and high society. Many of the same Hollywood execs who bankroll Democratic nominees were the ones who came out in support of Polanski. Many Hollywood stars.

So maybe I'm making unwarranted assumptions, but from having this discussion in the past I've found that typically only hard-line liberal types tend to want to excuse Polanski or want to find a reason to look the other way.

Although, times are changing. The latest poll I saw had 80% of Americans AND 80% OF FRENCHMEN in favor of extradition.

The capitalized is important, because let's give credit where credit is due. The French people have the right idea, it's their government that's corrupt.

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Oh dear God. That wasn't an invitation to make it political.

I'm out.

Gina said:

Please carry on. We are at an end. No precedent is ever set over an issue like this. There are winners and losers (though I think they are scum no matter what) in the gamble that the wealthy and connected take when they chose to break the law.

I think using this one case as a culturally defining moment, is overstating it a bit.

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Rosa Parks grabbing a seat on the bus was only one little incident, how culturally defining was that? Not putting this on the same level as the civil rights movement, but I am pointing out that seemingly small incidents can make a big impact.

Gina said:

Oh dear God. That wasn't an invitation to make it political.

I'm out.

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Bye bye, don't trip on those shoes, they look hard to balance in.

Peter Grimm said:

The left has a fascination and endearment with all things Hollywood, French, and high society. Many of the same Hollywood execs who bankroll Democratic nominees were the ones who came out in support of Polanski. Many Hollywood stars.

So maybe I'm making unwarranted assumptions, but from having this discussion in the past I've found that typically only hard-line liberal types tend to want to excuse Polanski or want to find a reason to look the other way.

Although, times are changing. The latest poll I saw had 80% of Americans AND 80% OF FRENCHMEN in favor of extradition.

The capitalized is important, because let's give credit where credit is due. The French people have the right idea, it's their government that's corrupt.

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The Left cares less about it. I would not doubt that Hollywood would support Roman because of professional biases. Every profession has it. Sometimes they like to back their own because gosh darnit, Roman/Rather/whoever has done great work and it would be such a shame to see them go. That being said, no one gives much of a damn about Roman's extradition.

Peter Grimm said:

AND 80% OF FRENCHMEN in favor of extradition.

The capitalized is important, because let's give credit where credit is due. The French people have the right idea, it's their government that's corrupt.

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Hmmm.

Fiddytree said:

The Left cares less about it. I would not doubt that Hollywood would support Roman because of professional biases. Every profession has it. Sometimes they like to back their own because gosh darnit, Roman/Rather/whoever has done great work and it would be such a shame to see them go. That being said, no one gives much of a damn about Roman's extradition.

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Good, then let's extradite him.

Grand Mal said:

Hmmm.

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Check out Pete EU's wiki link, the stats are in there.

Peter Grimm said:

Good, then let's extradite him.

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The French stand in the way.

Peter Grimm said:

How, if at all, does this case affect your perception of France?

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HA! not one iota. France has been devoid of any sense of honor and decency for over a century. I doubt the term 'rape' is understood by most of them.

OldWorldOrder said:

lol cb. You're better than this. Aid and Abet legal definition of Aid and Abet. Aid and Abet synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary. "To assist another in the commission of a crime by words or conduct."

You're confusing harboring with aiding and abetting. Words have meaning. You should use them.

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You're correct, they only aided and abetted the crime of flight from justice (a felony in every jurisdiction). They ALSO are guilty of harboring. So two crimes instead of just the one.