What is a "liveable wage"?

Rocketman · Nov 25, 2013

Your Star said:
They can spend their money on what they want, but the wage they receive should at the very least be able to provide the basics. If they don't spend their wage on that stuff, that is their choice.

That is what a minimum wage should be.

Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be careers for anyone, they are entry level positions period.

Gipper · Nov 25, 2013

Rocketman said:
Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be careers for anyone, they are entry level positions period.

Minimum wage isn't even entry level. Entry level implies the ability for upward movement with self-improvement, and not just retail "through the system" mobility when Agnes, who runs the electronics department, retires.

People that are 40 and still making minimum wage have pretty much lost in life. The sad part is that they've probably decided to continue their bad lineage by having a few kids they cannot afford who will grow up and witness failure firsthand from inept, stupid parents.

Life sucks sometimes, especially when your parents dealt you crappy hole cards from poor decisions.

Rocketman · Nov 25, 2013

Gipper said:
Minimum wage isn't even entry level. Entry level implies the ability for upward movement with self-improvement, and not just retail "through the system" mobility when Agnes, who runs the electronics department, retires.

People that are 40 and still making minimum wage have pretty much lost in life. The sad part is that they've probably decided to continue their bad lineage by having a few kids they cannot afford who will grow up and witness failure firsthand from inept, stupid parents.

Life sucks sometimes, especially when your parents dealt you crappy hole cards from poor decisions.

I know people at Wal-mart that started out as cashiers that are store managers now, it happens, not as often as liberals would like, but it does happen.

Chiefgator · Nov 25, 2013

Helix said:
But maximizing raw computing power for the average citizen will also increase their access to new opportunities. Right now, a big part of the problem is missing rungs in the ladder. This would help to put some of those rungs back in place.

Education is key to intellectual curiosity and innovation. Everyone should have the opportunity to develop the mind independent of cost. If it does end up taking a degree to run a register (which will soon be entirely automated anyway) someone who has more completely achieved his or her intellectual potential has a much better shot at finding or innovating something else.

To which I agree. I am not saying that being educated is a bad thing. We are a much better educated country than we were 20 years ago. And we are much better off for it.

I am saying that in the end, the goal posts will continue to move. I am in the process of gaining my Master's, because of this exact issue. My BS and experience is no longer enough to promote to the lever that I desire. The goal posts have moved. Ten or twenty years ago, I would be very highly qualified for the positions I am seeking, now I am only marginally so.

Helix · Nov 25, 2013

Chiefgator said:
To which I agree. I am not saying that being educated is a bad thing. We are a much better educated country than we were 20 years ago. And we are much better off for it.

I am saying that in the end, the goal posts will continue to move. I am in the process of gaining my Master's, because of this exact issue. My BS and experience is no longer enough to promote to the lever that I desire. The goal posts have moved. Ten or twenty years ago, I would be very highly qualified for the positions I am seeking, now I am only marginally so.

Same here. I'm also masters level, and it has lost ground. Your point is correct, and I don't dispute that. However, imagine a country where the average level of education is masters instead of high school, and then think about all of the potential benefits of that.

Boo Radley · Nov 25, 2013

Gipper said:
I'll tackle this:

Poverty In America: Cellphones, TVs, Refrigerators And Microwave Ovens : Personal Liberty

What is Poverty in the United States: Air Conditioning, Cable TV and an Xbox

Not that helpful. Mostly just propaganda to suggest that there are no poor here. We're a rich country and as such, much of this people have, though not as nice as it might be made out. Lord knows I spent a lot of years piece mealing those things together with junk appliances. But I had them.

Living is largely seen what it takes to meet what it is expected in society. To have a place to live, enough food to eat, all insurances required paid, to function comfortably. Now, certainly, the tendency here is to always live above our means. But, if you can't meet what is expected, not desired, than you live in poverty.

Neomalthusian · Nov 25, 2013

Chiefgator said:
To which I agree. I am not saying that being educated is a bad thing. We are a much better educated country than we were 20 years ago. And we are much better off for it.

I am saying that in the end, the goal posts will continue to move. I am in the process of gaining my Master's, because of this exact issue. My BS and experience is no longer enough to promote to the lever that I desire. The goal posts have moved. Ten or twenty years ago, I would be very highly qualified for the positions I am seeking, now I am only marginally so.

This might work out well for you. There are people it doesn't always work out well for, which is often those who incur massive student loans pursuing a bachelor's degree that leaves them, as you say, only marginally more qualified. This is a terrible and probably unintended consequence of our perhaps over-promotion of higher education. The more universal higher education becomes, the less valuable it will be, and this is why those goal posts move. When people talk about opening up higher education, making it "free" or whatnot, there might be some advantages to that, but potentially severe disadvantages.

Helix said:
Same here. I'm also masters level, and it has lost ground. Your point is correct, and I don't dispute that. However, imagine a country where the average level of education is masters instead of high school, and then think about all of the potential benefits of that.

Yeah, it's just like thinking about all the potential benefits of everyone owning their own home.*

*sarcasm (see also: 2001-2007)

ocean515 · Nov 25, 2013

Gipper said:
Minimum wage isn't even entry level. Entry level implies the ability for upward movement with self-improvement, and not just retail "through the system" mobility when Agnes, who runs the electronics department, retires.

People that are 40 and still making minimum wage have pretty much lost in life. The sad part is that they've probably decided to continue their bad lineage by having a few kids they cannot afford who will grow up and witness failure firsthand from inept, stupid parents.

Life sucks sometimes, especially when your parents dealt you crappy hole cards from poor decisions.

I've been watching your thread here since you posted it. Unless I missed something, I haven't seen anyone post a single figure. Not an hourly rate, not a gross salary. Yet, "living wage" is the battle call from the Progressive Machine.

As your thread is proving, there is no such thing. It's just a poorly disguised call to unionize.

Your Star · Nov 25, 2013

Rocketman said:
Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be careers for anyone, they are entry level positions period.

Doesn't mean that the minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage.

Neomalthusian · Nov 25, 2013

Your Star said:
Doesn't mean that the minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage.

Yes it does mean that. You seem to be trying as hard as you can to ignore and avoid all the disadvantages of doubling the federal wage floor.

Rocketman · Nov 25, 2013

Your Star said:
Doesn't mean that the minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage.

Of course it does, minimum wage jobs are not careers. If one is having children while working it one, that is on them and not anyone else.

Your Star · Nov 25, 2013

Rocketman said:
Of course it does, minimum wage jobs are not careers. If one is having children while working it one, that is on them and not anyone else.

No it doesn't. Just because something isn't a career does not mean that the job shouldn't pay a livable wage. TBH, the thought that a career might only pay a livable wage is frightening, because a livable wage isn't much, just providing the basics.

Gipper · Nov 25, 2013

ocean515 said:
I've been watching your thread here since you posted it. Unless I missed something, I haven't seen anyone post a single figure. Not an hourly rate, not a gross salary. Yet, "living wage" is the battle call from the Progressive Machine.

As your thread is proving, there is no such thing. It's just a poorly disguised call to unionize.

They get called out on to the red carpet. It's not a fun place to be.

Usually the people who whine for a "liveable wage" just means "we want more money, but we don't want to earn/work for it". They prey on people's emotions and complete lack of macroeconomic education.

Rocketman · Nov 25, 2013

Your Star said:
No it doesn't. Just because something isn't a career does not mean that the job shouldn't pay a livable wage. TBH, the thought that a career might only pay a livable wage is frightening, because a livable wage isn't much, just providing the basics.

which is not what a minimum wage job is designed to do

Your Star · Nov 25, 2013

Rocketman said:
which is not what a minimum wage job is designed to do

Says who?

Medusa · Nov 25, 2013

Gipper said:
I've seen far too many people (that lack any sort of basic economic education) discuss some fictitious term like "liveable wage". I think it's time we let liberals define it.

What is it, people?

life doesnt mean only paying the bills but finding enough opportunity to enjoy your moments

so enough money to make you feel like a human

Gipper · Nov 25, 2013

Medusa said:
life doesnt mean only paying the bills but finding enough opportunity to enjoy your moments

so enough money to make you feel like a human

Just when you think the definition couldn't get more subjective...

Rocketman · Nov 25, 2013

Your Star said:
Says who?

Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be used to support a family. They are entry-level, low-skill jobs, and the pay reflects that. Although I admire someone who works two jobs (I did for 13 years), I have to ask the following questions:

1. If you're a good employee, why haven't you moved up into management, or to a line position with a higher salary?
2. Are there other food service employers who offer better wages, and if there are, why haven't you gone to work for one of them?
3. Did you finish school? Did you go to a technical school or any higher form of education, or try to get any type of higher level of skill? Did you join the military to take advantage of their opportunities? If not, why not?
4. Do you smoke, drink, or use any type of drug?
5. You have three kids. Did you put any thought into delaying having children until your economic situation had improved?

Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be used to support a family. They are entry-level, low-skill jobs, and the pay reflects that. Although I admire someone who works two jobs (I did for 13 years) | AthensTalks.com

just one of thousands of links on the same subject

Medusa · Nov 25, 2013

Gipper said:
Just when you think the definition couldn't get more subjective...

depends on what you mean by " living "

Goshin · Nov 25, 2013

CalGun said:
For where? A live able wage in San Francisco is far different then my home in Denio Junction where I can live on $750 a month and save for retirement.

Also is every job required to pay a living wage? Why? Why do that to an entry level opportunity for teens and what impacts would such a decision have on the fixed income masses who won't get cost of living increases fast enough to stay up with the inflation of higher mandated wages. I personally think a man should be free to work for what he wants how ever high or low that May be.

That would be lovely, but my employer won't let me be free to work for whatever salary I want. Nor will any other employer.

Gipper · Nov 25, 2013

Medusa said:
depends on what you mean by " living "

Breathing in and out 15-20 times a minute, heartbeat between 70 and 90 beats a minute, function without internal injuries, able to move without assistance, etc.

Chiefgator · Nov 25, 2013

Unskilled labor gets paid an unskilled labor wage. If you are unskilled, your standard of living must meet your means. If you want a better standard of living, gain a skill and your pay will improve and your standard of living will improve.

Even at the aforementioned McD and WalMart, if you stay with them a while and get qualified in different areas or skills, you will get a raise. Granted not a huge raise, but as you get more skill, you are compensated for that.

If you are on a road crew and all you can do is be the Flagman.... you get paid peanuts. Get qualified to operate the heavy machinery, 'Dozer etc... you will get a sustantial raise.

CalGun · Nov 25, 2013

There is only one limitation and that is minimum wage. If your employer won't pay you as much as you want you are free to leave. Want and worth are two different things. Minimum wage is the only restriction and it does not gauge what one is worth it merely is a want by the left to give to the masses for its votes. It has zero to do with one's worth. I may want $10,000 a month and I am free to seek an employer who will pay for it - this isn't pre curtain russia where our careers are set for us and we have no freedom or choices. If I decide I am going to make no less than $10,000 a month I'm free to seek that until I get it. However I am not free to seek - say $5 an hour - even though that may be all I'm worth or even want. That freedom is taken from us.

Goshin said:
That would be lovely, but my employer won't let me be free to work for whatever salary I want. Nor will any other employer.

Goshin · Nov 25, 2013

CalGun said:
There is only one limitation and that is minimum wage. If your employer won't pay you as much as you want you are free to leave. Want and worth are two different things. Minimum wage is the only restriction and it does not gauge what one is worth it merely is a want by the left to give to the masses for its votes. It has zero to do with one's worth. I may want $10,000 a month and I am free to seek an employer who will pay for it - this isn't pre curtain russia where our careers are set for us and we have no freedom or choices. If I decide I am going to make no less than $10,000 a month I'm free to seek that until I get it. However I am not free to seek - say $5 an hour - even though that may be all I'm worth or even want. That freedom is taken from us.

My point was that pretty much nobody gets to choose what they make. The best they can do is try to get into a career that makes good money, hope their employer actually pays them good money, and hope their career doesn't become technologically obsolete or outsourced or otherwise vanish like smoke thru no fault of their own.

In short, it ain't that simple bud.

Medusa · Nov 25, 2013

Gipper said:
Breathing in and out 15-20 times a minute, heartbeat between 70 and 90 beats a minute, function without internal injuries, able to move without assistance, etc.

no liveable wage ,sweating is enough like in Auschwitz

What is a "liveable wage"?

What is a "liveable wage"?

Cold beans and a roach motel

Bunkin with 2-3 friends and take-out

Living alone in my own place, new car, new iphone

Who cares, I just want to soak the rich.

There is no such thing as "liveable wage".

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