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What is a "liveable wage"?

What is a "liveable wage"?


  • Total voters
    34
By many standards the poor in the US live better than the middle class in many parts of the
world.
Simple things like hot water, electricity,and a refrigerator ect...
In the late 70's, I knew some guys who were illegal immigrants.
They worked hard, and all were trying to send money home.
They shared a 2 bedroom apartment with 6 people, one married couple and 4 single guys.
They said the apartment was nicer and bigger than where they lived in Mexico.
Most Americans would have thought the situation was intolerable, but
these guys thought they were living a life of luxury.
People in the US have issues separating wants from needs.
 
What city (if even a city)? I'm guessing where you live you're paying a hell of a lot less than me for the same services and goods.

...which is why I said that I didn't use static figures, but by those services and goods. A place with cheaper services and goods will pay less in wages.
 
...which is why I said that I didn't use static figures, but by those services and goods. A place with cheaper services and goods will pay less in wages.

So I'm guessing then that the real question is not "what is a liveable wage" but "what should be included in the list of things that a liveable wage should be able to purchase?"
 
So I'm guessing then that the real question is not "what is a liveable wage" but "what should be included in the list of things that a liveable wage should be able to purchase?"

I was trying to reference it basically by percentages, like "how much over MW do you think you're owed so that it can be a liveable wage", and using that to purchase all these non-necessities with that same percentile difference.
 
There is no set-in-stone "liveable" wage amount, however, the definition of a liveable wage would essentially be the cost for a person to pay their bills without going into more debt.

However, what the cost for a person to do that is different with everyone. A person's habits, bills, debt, location, age, all play into it. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to help people and like it or not, the only way to do so effectively with our population is to set a min amount. Unless of course you want to pay for an army of people to do evaluations on each person on a case by case basis all paid for by the taxpayers. I don't think you want that either.

So the 'cost to pay their bills without going further into debt' is defined...how?

I go around the house snapping lights off, wear a sweater because I keep the house at 72 in the winter, and someone should be able to earn a 'living wage' (which may be more then I earn) while they leave all the lights on, take hour showers and keep the house at 75?

That definition needs a serious revamping. No one has a right to a wage they haven't earned..... don't like what you're earning, then do something to make yourself worth more.....
 
:rofl

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Varies, obviously. I don't need much because I make my own beer but someone in the city should probably make about 4 times the cost of housing- rent or mortgage. Household income, I mean. I'm probably one of the last generation of blue-collars who could buy a house on one income. In the city I escaped from, anyway.
 
I was trying to reference it basically by percentages, like "how much over MW do you think you're owed so that it can be a liveable wage", and using that to purchase all these non-necessities with that same percentile difference.

When I was in college and single, I lived on far less than I would have made at a MW job working 40 hours a week and that included rent, food, clothes, phone, internet utilities, gas, insurance, and credit card payments for the student bookstore raping I got at least twice a year. When I lived alone, I squeaked by. When I lived with others, it was pretty liveable though not the lifestyle I aspired to permanently.
 
I was trying to reference it basically by percentages, like "how much over MW do you think you're owed so that it can be a liveable wage", and using that to purchase all these non-necessities with that same percentile difference.

I really don't know how to answer something like that because each location will have different necessities. For example, if you live in a town with a good public transportation system you can actually afford to mothball your car for months at a time and thus avoiding unnecessary gas and insurance costs, whereas here in Los Angeles that's really not an option. And of course some places will need indoor heating, others not so much. Etc etc.

The problem I see with this sort of discussion is that no matter how spartan the necessity I list one can always find a way to point out an even cheaper alternative, which makes it nothing more than a race to the bottom.
 
I really don't know how to answer something like that because each location will have different necessities. For example, if you live in a town with a good public transportation system you can actually afford to mothball your car for months at a time and thus avoiding unnecessary gas and insurance costs, whereas here in Los Angeles that's really not an option. And of course some places will need indoor heating, others not so much. Etc etc.

The problem I see with this sort of discussion is that no matter how spartan the necessity I list one can always find a way to point out an even cheaper alternative, which makes it nothing more than a race to the bottom.

I have no problem with people making sacrifices. You don't have to be below poverty level for that.

My problem is that people seem to resent Big Business because they drive a Toyota instead of a Lexus, or eat a Whopper instead of a steak, or have to play the classic Zeldas on a SNES instead of the latest version of Wind Waker on the newest Nintendo out to date.

It's the entitlement issue - everyone wants to blame someone else for their lot in life, and corporations are the easiest scapegoat.
 
While they're at it, maybe they could define for us what "rich" or "wealthy" means too.

I voted "there is no such thing..." - with an important caveat - that such a term is necessarily and purely subjective, ergo any objective definition cannot exist.

I remember very vividly when Bill Clinton was president in 1993 he defined middle class as households earning $70,000 to $250,000. I was shocked beyond measure. My parents always told me that we were middle class. It was quite a shock to find out we were way below the upper crust of the lower class. We were somewhere towards the bottom. My first 13 years I was middle class and Bill Clinton changed everything and made me a pauper with one speech with a fancy chart.

I believe there is some sort of agenda in convincing people that we are poor. In the 80's when I was growing up almost everybody called themselves middle class. Now everybody I know defines themselves as poor. I think there is a purpose behind changing the mindset of America. I just don't understand the benefit behind stripping everyone's self worth and dignity but I'm sure they are up to something. Anyways, it worked.

:thinking I just don't know.
 
I have no problem with people making sacrifices. You don't have to be below poverty level for that.

My problem is that people seem to resent Big Business because they drive a Toyota instead of a Lexus, or eat a Whopper instead of a steak, or have to play the classic Zeldas on a SNES instead of the latest version of Wind Waker on the newest Nintendo out to date.

It's the entitlement issue - everyone wants to blame someone else for their lot in life, and corporations are the easiest scapegoat.

While that's certainly true (I'm agreeing with you), if you're going to say that you also have to look at where the opposite line of thinking cripples the discussion of what entails a liveable wage, such as criticizing someone making minimum wage for eating a peanut butter sandwich when they could be saving money and eating Alpo instead.

Again, it's that whole race to the bottom thing that prevents me from happily delving into what I believe constitutes a "necessity."
 
I really don't know how to answer something like that because each location will have different necessities. For example, if you live in a town with a good public transportation system you can actually afford to mothball your car for months at a time and thus avoiding unnecessary gas and insurance costs, whereas here in Los Angeles that's really not an option. And of course some places will need indoor heating, others not so much. Etc etc.

The problem I see with this sort of discussion is that no matter how spartan the necessity I list one can always find a way to point out an even cheaper alternative, which makes it nothing more than a race to the bottom.

The thing is what most view as the 'basics' of life are far from it.

Those that feel they deserve a living wage, want it at the cost to someone else (preferably ebil corporations) rather then improving themselves and earning more to climb their own ladder.

Hearing people claim FMW should be a 'living wage' brings tears of laughter to my eyes..... no one is forcing people to only make minimum wage. It's that they don't want to put forth the effort to make themselves worth more.... minimum work gets you minimum wage.
 
There is no such thing as a "living wage" or "livable wage" because wages are not determined with the employer having to give consideration given to what the person's lifestyle needs are. The lifestyle needs and choices of the applicant are frankly none of the employer's business.

If a local grocer wants to hire one person to keep shopping carts from cluttering the parking lot and keep the icy sidewalks salted, and two interested applicants show up, a 35-year old single father of three, and a 16-year old only child who lives at home with his middle class parents…

…what is the living wage that the job should pay?

Hire the teenager. He'll work for much less.
 
While that's certainly true (I'm agreeing with you), if you're going to say that you also have to look at where the opposite line of thinking cripples the discussion of what entails a liveable wage, such as criticizing someone making minimum wage for eating a peanut butter sandwich when they could be saving money and eating Alpo instead.

Again, it's that whole race to the bottom thing that prevents me from happily delving into what I believe constitutes a "necessity."

Frankly, one would think that the "race to the bottom" would spur some people into bettering themselves so that they can be a more valuable member to society and the workforce, with a paycheck to reflect that.

We should have obvious economic deterrents for depending on a basement wage to scrape by. By just giving into them and their selfishness, laziness, and ineptitude (by clamorin for a "liveable wage"), you've disincentivized them from ever making somethin of themselves.

As of right now, we have a system that's somewhat meritocratic. If your lofty aspirations involve eeking through a revolving-door primary school system, settling into a McJob, and living a minimum wage existence, then life should suck for you. You should wake up thinking "damn, life blows" - because that's the life you chose.

What does it say about people who want to reward that kind of self-defeating attitude?
 
No...I don't think a PS4 or Xbox One or an Iphone should be the measuring stick for poverty. I think for the most part getting people out of the trap where as soon as they get paid everything leaves for clothing/rent/food and they are constantly behind paying basic bills.

To me that's poverty...eeking by where one flat tire or one of those unplanned costs out of no where means not enough to eat or getting behind on rent. The poverty trap is what I want to be eliminated. It's a nasty thing.

Sometimes people making $100,000+ per year live in poverty. I've seen that too. A government mandated living wage won't protect those kind of individuals.
 
Unless of course you want to pay for an army of people to do evaluations on each person on a case by case basis all paid for by the taxpayers.

I think some conservatives would like this plan. Some conservatives have a hate for the poor that exceeds their desire to see the government use money wisely.

These false conservatives really piss me off. :2mad:
 
Frankly, one would think that the "race to the bottom" would spur some people into bettering themselves so that they can be a more valuable member to society and the workforce, with a paycheck to reflect that.

We should have obvious economic deterrents for depending on a basement wage to scrape by. By just giving into them and their selfishness, laziness, and ineptitude (by clamorin for a "liveable wage"), you've disincentivized them from ever making somethin of themselves.

As of right now, we have a system that's somewhat meritocratic. If your lofty aspirations involve eeking through a revolving-door primary school system, settling into a McJob, and living a minimum wage existence, then life should suck for you. You should wake up thinking "damn, life blows" - because that's the life you chose.

What does it say about people who want to reward that kind of self-defeating attitude?

Except what you're missing is that people do actually want to live better. Okay, an example of what I would consider to be a "minimum" home situation is either a studio apartment or having roommates in a mulltibedroom apartment. Just one problem with that: even if you gave that to me I would frigging hate the hell out of living under those circumstances and would work and educate my way out of it. Which, as it happens, I've done. If my example of a minimum residence situation were hijacked into the race to the bottom, you could point out that I could be saving loads of money by living in a homeless shelter, at which point the discussion is just silly.
 
I've seen far too many people (that lack any sort of basic economic education) discuss some fictitious term like "liveable wage". I think it's time we let liberals define it.

What is it, people?

Is this limited to liberal's responding? If so, ignore the following:

A living wage is what a person can achieve given their own talents and capabilities. The circumstances of ones life are to be gauged by the persons wage earning capability, not the other way around.
 
Sometimes people making $100,000+ per year live in poverty. I've seen that too. A government mandated living wage won't protect those kind of individuals.

Yep. I personally know such people. The wage a job pays is determined primarily by the range of pay that the employer has budgeted to be able to hire outside help.

The wage that left wingers consider "living" or "livable" is based on what a given person "needs," which is determined mostly by lifestyle choices.

The difference between a "living wage" and an actual wage is the difference between fantasy and reality.
 
Except what you're missing is that people do actually want to live better. Okay, an example of what I would consider to be a "minimum" home situation is either a studio apartment or having roommates in a mulltibedroom apartment. Just one problem with that: even if you gave that to me I would frigging hate the hell out of living under those circumstances and would work and educate my way out of it. Which, as it happens, I've done. If my example of a minimum residence situation were hijacked into the race to the bottom, you could point out that I could be saving loads of money by living in a homeless shelter, at which point the discussion is just silly.

Want in one hand, defecate in the other. Which one fills up faster?

I have no sympathy for people who want to live better. It doesn't take effort to want.

Liberals "want". Conservatives "do". There are avenues out there available for self-improvement. I can cheer for the person who goes down the path. I can't cheer for someone who wants to go down the path.
 
Sometimes people making $100,000+ per year live in poverty. I've seen that too. A government mandated living wage won't protect those kind of individuals.

Sure. That is a result of how they spend their money though and not the cause of having a salary that can barely sustain even a basic lifestyle.
 
So the 'cost to pay their bills without going further into debt' is defined...how?

I go around the house snapping lights off, wear a sweater because I keep the house at 72 in the winter, and someone should be able to earn a 'living wage' (which may be more then I earn) while they leave all the lights on, take hour showers and keep the house at 75?

That definition needs a serious revamping. No one has a right to a wage they haven't earned..... don't like what you're earning, then do something to make yourself worth more.....

The question was asked to define what a liveable wage is. Like I said, the definition doesn't allow a "set" amount to be set because everyone's "liveable" wage is different was the point I was trying to make. You can't have a set amount on liveable.

Not sure why the hostile response to what I said, but whatever floats your boat. You seem to want to put words in my mouth as to what I was saying, and what you are saying is simple not true to what I want. Try again.
 
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