View Poll Results: What is a "liveable wage"?

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  • Cold beans and a roach motel

    5 10.20%
  • Bunkin with 2-3 friends and take-out

    11 22.45%
  • Living alone in my own place, new car, new iphone

    7 14.29%
  • Who cares, I just want to soak the rich.

    1 2.04%
  • There is no such thing as "liveable wage".

    25 51.02%
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Thread: What is a "liveable wage"?

  1. #91
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Nope. I got where I was through my own decisions, which I still stand by. I also had other factors in play besides the minimum wage.

    However, let me say something very clearly: most of the time I spent working at minimum wage, I was doing so in countries that have a higher minimum wage than we do. I was making, in American dollars, a bit over 8 bucks an hour.

    I have never worked the American minimum wage as an adult. And I can't imagine trying to live on it by my definition of a livable wage.

    I don't think it's right for people to be able to work full time and still not be able to have that definition of a living wage. That's super basic. Just because someone doesn't have a degree doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to live on their work. Have you forgotten how much a degree costs?

    I don't think it's too much to ask to be able to have food in a fridge in exchange for working 40 hours a week of their life.
    Who would be denying someone food to put in the fridge?

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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I have no problem with people making sacrifices. You don't have to be below poverty level for that.

    My problem is that people seem to resent Big Business because they drive a Toyota instead of a Lexus, or eat a Whopper instead of a steak, or have to play the classic Zeldas on a SNES instead of the latest version of Wind Waker on the newest Nintendo out to date..

    Yeah I know those types, have to have the best of the best even if they can't afford it and resent people who can. Although anyone who resents having to play one of the greatest games ever made needs their head checked.
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    Yeah I know those types, have to have the best of the best even if they can't afford it and resent people who can. Although anyone who resents having to play one of the greatest games ever made needs their head checked.
    I know. I have emulators.

    Of course, I think you have to earn the right to play Wind Waker. If you have a good job, buy it. If you make minimum wage, ask Santa Claus or mommy for Christmas.

  4. #94
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
    Your words, not mine.

    Your definition gets even vaguer.

    Food: so now people can be told what, and how much to eat, to meet this 'nutrition' criteria?
    Housing: Already addressed by laws. If they chose to live somewhere that fails to meet those laws, then they need to report it to the housing authority.
    Transportation: Then public transportation, where available, will get the job done.

    When you want to take from one hand and give it to another, with no incentive from the second hand to do more to improve themselves, then it is easy to spend someone else's money....
    My definition isn't vague, it is rather clear. People are free to purchase what they want, but a living wage should afford everyone access to these foods that provide all the nutrition a person needs.

    Also, public transportation is not available everywhere. Where I live, if you don't have a car, you aren't going anywhere.

    And where are we taking the money from? These people are working for this wage, mandating that the minimum wage be a livable wage isn't stealing from anyone.

    Like I said, it's not that complicated and this stuff is very basic and stuff that every adult wage should provide.
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    Your two statements are contradictory. Look at it this way... If the minimum education level is raised to "Bachelors" (30k) then it won't take long before that Bachelor's degree (30k) is just like a high school diploma (12k) is now.
    big difference. education does not necessarily equal job training. it is weightlifting for the mind, and intellectual rigor during the maturation of the brain has benefits outside of a degree. the new neural connections can be used for a wide variety of computational purposes. ensuring access to college is absolutely key.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    I have seen it first hand. In the Navy, there are qualifications called a Warfare Designator (Air, Surface, etc) They USED to be voluntary. They were hard to get and required a lot of effort to get ESWS or EAWS (Enlisted Surface/Air Warfare Specialist) qualified. It really broke out the professionals from the guy just getting by. A few years back, they made the qualification mandatory. Now, the norm is to see Dual or even Triple qualified Sailors. You would think "Hey, Great. They are now more highly trained." But they are not. The qualifications are now easier to get and they have no impact besides a "check in the box".

    I understand that "guaranteeing access" is different than "mandating" BUT, if we suddenly have 80% of the American populace with a Bachelors Degree, then it will not be long until the only way to get a "high level" job is to have a Master's. It is already starting to be that way, and there is no doubt in my mind that the trend will continue.
    i see the point you're trying to make, but guaranteeing access to college is a net benefit for the individual, the economy, and the society. when your economy runs on innovation, you need the largest pool of innovators as possible to draw from.

  6. #96
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    My definition isn't vague, it is rather clear. People are free to purchase what they want, but a living wage should afford everyone access to these foods that provide all the nutrition a person needs.

    Also, public transportation is not available everywhere. Where I live, if you don't have a car, you aren't going anywhere.

    And where are we taking the money from? These people are working for this wage, mandating that the minimum wage be a livable wage isn't stealing from anyone.

    Like I said, it's not that complicated and this stuff is very basic and stuff that every adult wage should provide.
    The things you generalize adults as universally needing are still extremely variable. My co-worker is an adult who doesn't need a car (her husband has one, he works less than a mile away, and she walks to work). They live on a float house that they own, with no children. You're saying her wage should be determined by government to ensure that it provides for a vehicle despite her personal situation not necessitating one?

    An even better example is children. I'm sure you think any and every wage should provide reasonably for raising children, but children are really expensive and not everyone has them. Not everyone who HAS HAD them still supports them.

    So it sounds like you realize that it wouldn't make sense for wages to be determined according to individual need, but rather you think the entire wage floor should be raised to a standard that would meet for any supposedly average person's needs, despite the fact that this would significantly overshoot what huge numbers of adults actually DO need. Need-based wages are fantasies. Wages are job-based. It's up to the applicant if they want to trade their time for that wage. It's not up to the employer to hire the person and then have to adjust the wage according to need.

    Here's a question for need-based wage advocates:

    Which scenario should pay what? 1) An entry level bank teller who is a single parent with 3 children and $50,000 of student loans, or 2) an accountant who happens to be married to a doctor and they no children and no debt and own their home and vehicles? Very different jobs, very different needs that those people have… so what should the wages be? Why should the accountant be paid more than she needs, and why should the single mom be paid less than she needs?
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 11-25-13 at 05:56 PM.

  7. #97
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    My definition isn't vague, it is rather clear. People are free to purchase what they want, but a living wage should afford everyone access to these foods that provide all the nutrition a person needs.

    Also, public transportation is not available everywhere. Where I live, if you don't have a car, you aren't going anywhere.

    And where are we taking the money from? These people are working for this wage, mandating that the minimum wage be a livable wage isn't stealing from anyone.

    Like I said, it's not that complicated and this stuff is very basic and stuff that every adult wage should provide.
    Increased wages isn't going to come off a company's bottom line... they will increase their prices, which means everybody pays for it.

    So defining a 'living wage' means they can spend it however they want. Access doesn't mean they will buy it. Which leaves that vast grey area of definition about what is 'necessary' and what is not.

    Not everyone in a 'minimum wage' position is supporting themselves to live..... So, by your phrase, 'adult wage', means that there should be a separate required wage, based on age, rather then ability?
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    big difference. education does not necessarily equal job training. it is weightlifting for the mind, and intellectual rigor during the maturation of the brain has benefits outside of a degree. the new neural connections can be used for a wide variety of computational purposes. ensuring access to college is absolutely key.



    i see the point you're trying to make, but guaranteeing access to college is a net benefit for the individual, the economy, and the society. when your economy runs on innovation, you need the largest pool of innovators as possible to draw from.
    And I agree with all of your points in theory. However, in practice it is going to drive the market the way I described. We will all be better off with the vast majority of our citizens being college educated.

    For example: Not too long ago, graduating from High School was a big deal. I remember when I graduated (1984), I had friends that were the first to do so in their family. Back then, having a diploma opened a lot of doors. Now, you cannot get a steady job without one.
    Case in point; I have a good friend that owns a towing business, one of the oldest and most successful in Central Florida. Right now, he will not hire a driver without a diploma. His father started the business many years ago, with no HS education, and would be hired today..... Granted, the tow truck drivers are much better educated and can make better decisions when on their own etc. I get that. BUT... there was once a time when you would think that a HS dropout would be just fine working as a driver. Now, that is not the case.

    By the time my grandchildren are my age, you will need a degree to operate a cash register. Everyone will be more educated and in the end, society will benefit from the increased knowledge, problem solving skills, and innovation skills... but just because you are college educated, will not equate to better paying jobs.
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
    Increased wages isn't going to come off a company's bottom line... they will increase their prices, which means everybody pays for it.

    So defining a 'living wage' means they can spend it however they want. Access doesn't mean they will buy it. Which leaves that vast grey area of definition about what is 'necessary' and what is not.

    Not everyone in a 'minimum wage' position is supporting themselves to live..... So, by your phrase, 'adult wage', means that there should be a separate required wage, based on age, rather then ability?
    They can spend their money on what they want, but the wage they receive should at the very least be able to provide the basics. If they don't spend their wage on that stuff, that is their choice.

    That is what a minimum wage should be.
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  10. #100
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    Re: What is a "liveable wage"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    And I agree with all of your points in theory. However, in practice it is going to drive the market the way I described. We will all be better off with the vast majority of our citizens being college educated.

    For example: Not too long ago, graduating from High School was a big deal. I remember when I graduated (1984), I had friends that were the first to do so in their family. Back then, having a diploma opened a lot of doors. Now, you cannot get a steady job without one.
    Case in point; I have a good friend that owns a towing business, one of the oldest and most successful in Central Florida. Right now, he will not hire a driver without a diploma. His father started the business many years ago, with no HS education, and would be hired today..... Granted, the tow truck drivers are much better educated and can make better decisions when on their own etc. I get that. BUT... there was once a time when you would think that a HS dropout would be just fine working as a driver. Now, that is not the case.

    By the time my grandchildren are my age, you will need a degree to operate a cash register. Everyone will be more educated and in the end, society will benefit from the increased knowledge, problem solving skills, and innovation skills... but just because you are college educated, will not equate to better paying jobs.
    But maximizing raw computing power for the average citizen will also increase their access to new opportunities. Right now, a big part of the problem is missing rungs in the ladder. This would help to put some of those rungs back in place.

    Education is key to intellectual curiosity and innovation. Everyone should have the opportunity to develop the mind independent of cost. If it does end up taking a degree to run a register (which will soon be entirely automated anyway) someone who has more completely achieved his or her intellectual potential has a much better shot at finding or innovating something else.

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