View Poll Results: Is it inevitable that millions of people will have to die due to population growth?

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Thread: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    Do you deny that this holiday would instantly lower the population?

    After all isn't population your big concern?

    My concern is your willingness to murder those whom you disagree with. I think that's very ****ed up.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    It would make sense if we were locust or even sheep. But we happen to be a species that creates and develops "resources". Not coincidentally, life is just fine in densely populated Holland, and not so comfortable in near-empty Ethiopia. It is about good government, culture and infrastructures, not about how many people are there. The more, the better, as long as they behave.
    I'd opine more like exploits resources. Much of the well off parts of the world are on a razor's edge when it comes to collapse. That governments help each other in such times, or not depending on a rather complex matrix of affinity and proximity, helps hide the fact a super storm could end Holland's prosperity. (not to mention much of what we see as the good life in Holland many CONs see as unsustainable due to the taxes needed to maintain that good life.)

    The great forests of New England are gone, there replacement a pale shade of scrub regrowth and lumber plantations. The farmers moved west to exploit the vast plains, leaving most of New England to be covered in a scrub regrowth. The vast short grass prairies of New Mexico are gone, the vast timbered slopes of the East Rockies around the Silver Towns are gone and neither will be replaced.

    Right now Texoma is in a stage 4 drought. Lakes are at 20 to 30% cap and no real relief in site. No water, no towns- our economy will collapse.

    When you study the collapse of civilizations several things repeat. Disease, crop failure, financial collapse, political instability.

    We comfort ourselves with the idea science and modern medicine have made epidemics like the black death a thing of the past, but a disturbing trend of 'super bugs' mainly due to an overuse/misuse of antibiotics maybe the tip of the iceberg.

    Crop failure is a real possibility, our modern agriculture depends on cheap credit and high industrial inputs. many farmers are only as good as their relationship with their bank. many areas are just one 'good' drought away from ruin. Agricultural productivity MUST have huge inputs of oil, from fuel to chemicals and fertilizer food production must have a steady flow of 'cheap' oil. Political turmoil in the ME can spell millions in extra food production costs. Another financial collapse can end credit to agriculture/food processors bringing food production to a dangerously low level.

    Whole continents have had their agricultural base ruined with millions dying due to 'natural' causes. Iceland with volcanoes, Europe and America's 'year with no summer' due to an island in the Pacific exploding, all killed millions of citizens in nations with good infrastructure, governments, culture, financial systems.

    Reckless financial policies are as deadly as droughts. Many CONs are certain the EU will collapse under the weight of it's nanny state taxes, but history has shown nations can collapse hard due to maintaining a military state. Casino Capitalism can destroy an economy as well as any war. hyperspeculation can raise prices above what the average man can afford, then crash the prices so his labor is worthless. A huge national disaster in a nation trillions of dollars in debt with a strong political faction willing to collapse the government, could be a perfect storm.

    Political collapse is a growing possibility- suicide partisan politics that undercuts a government's bond rating can destroy domestic and, if the nation is big enough, global credit. people without money are people without food as so many live in urban areas. Many empires fell not due to 'barbarian' invasion but a loss of civic duty and sacrifice by the masses who saw the ruling parties as too self involved.

    I think your mantra is a bit trite and a lot of wishful thinking. History is a record of mankind behaving badly.

  3. #53
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    My concern is your willingness to murder those whom you disagree with. I think that's very ****ed up.
    Are you willing to admit that if you were dead that would make 1 less person contributing to the "overpopulation problem"?

  4. #54
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by McjaqqerSwaqqer View Post
    One of my friends recently got into a heated debate with me as to weather or not millions of people are going to have to die as a result of rapid population growth. His logic was that as resources become depleted, and demand grows, people will be forced to fight over the remaining resources and in the process will have to kill each other. I however disagreed. I stated that I understood the premise behind which this scenario would take place. However I argued the inevitability of this situation ever presenting itself. I stated that through technological and intellectual achievements we will have the potential to maintain a larger more robust population indefinitely. My logic was the following.... Today we live in a world of 7 billion people. 300 years ago we could never have hoped to maintain such a large population effectively. However due to technological and other developments we are able to. Why must this trend which has been going on since the dawn of men stop now?..... My friend went on to argue that the killing of millions of people might not be such a bad thing because it would help others survive more efficiently and allow them to have more resources. HE ARGUED THAT THE DEATH OF MILLIONS WOULD BE BETTER FOR MANKIND. To this I replied, who decides who dies and who doesn't. I also replied saying that he was out of his mind. I just want to receive reassurance that I was not the one with faulty logic because I was in a setting in which 5 people were supporting his thinking and only two other people were supporting mine. (The people who supported the person with this reasoning supported him primarily because they believe he is some freaken diety and because they don't like me)
    I believe hundreds of millions or more will die but not mainly because of over population if over population is a factor at all. I think war with NBC weapons and global pandemics will likely be the culprits.

    I'm just working from memory but as I recall, the Bible predicts huge portions of the population of the earth will die in a future or possibly present era of global calamity as a result of war, disease and famine.

    I checked the numbers earlier today and nearly 40 million people have already died of aids world-wide and another nearly 40 million are alive but carry the HIV virus. In certain parts of the world as many as one in five people are HIV positive with more newly infected every day.

    Today man has the technical ability to end life on earth as we know it with modern weaponry. Even peaceful uses of scientific discoveries have the potential to take massive numbers of lives through accidents even when the best precautions are carefully followed.

    As a btw: Just because the Bible predicts massive numbers of people will die during a catastrophic period on earth does NOT mean God will personally kill people. I can say due to the laws of gravity, people falling to the ground from 50 feet up or higher will likely not survive the impact but that in no way implies I personally pushed anyone from the balcony of a multi-story condominium to their deaths.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    If we practiced and encouraged a sustainable society, perhaps similar to the Amish lifestyle, I think we could maintain continuity of species. However, we are a society of have and have nots, and I think the "haves" will be in charge of society and legislate control to benefit themselves. I know the statement is almost cynical, but the haves will decide that many have to be sacrificed for the greater good. Unfortunately, it is just their greater good, eh?

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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    I am a capitalist and I believe we are overpopulating the earth so that puts me in an awkward position. Capitalism needs growth to work.

  7. #57
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Much of the well off parts of the world are on a razor's edge when it comes to collapse. That governments help each other in such times, or not depending on a rather complex matrix of affinity and proximity, helps hide the fact a super storm could end Holland's prosperity..
    Yeah, so could a very large meteorite. The point?
    And of course the developed international trade and cooperation create a 'safety net'. That's part of being "developed" in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    The great forests of New England are gone, there replacement a pale shade of scrub regrowth and lumber plantations.
    Absolutely not true. The density and diversity of the forests of Maine, New Hampshire and much of Massachusetts is on par with those of any old growth.


    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    When you study the collapse of civilizations several things repeat. Disease, crop failure, financial collapse, political instability.
    Yes, of course - with disease and crop failure increasingly failing to cause either financial collapse or political instability. There were no revolutions or regime changes in 1816 in Europe, because even back then the developed infrastructures and trade had soften the blow of the Year without Summer enough to stabilize the situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Europe and America's 'year with no summer' due to an island in the Pacific exploding, all killed millions of citizens in nations with good infrastructure, governments, culture, financial systems.
    What sheer nonsense. There were some food riots, and prices went up.

    There was an epidemic of typhus in Ireland that killed a lot of people about the same time, and malnutrition caused by the food shortages certainly contributed to the death toll, but the early 19th century Ireland hardly boasted "good infrastructure and government".

    When Krakatoa erupted just 70 years later, climate changes were not as great, but severe enough. Crops failed in many places. But it barely registered as a blow to developed societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Reckless financial policies are as deadly as droughts.
    .

    And that's what we should worry about - not about running of out air, sunshine, or human ingenuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I think your mantra is a bit trite and a lot of wishful thinking. History is a record of mankind behaving badly.
    And yet here we are: more numerous, healthier and better fed than ever. Not wishful thinking - just calm observation. Beats disasterbation any time.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 11-25-13 at 12:23 PM.

  8. #58
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    I think somebody has been watching too many Mad Max movies.

  9. #59
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by McjaqqerSwaqqer View Post
    One of my friends recently got into a heated debate with me as to weather or not millions of people are going to have to die as a result of rapid population growth. His logic was that as resources become depleted, and demand grows, people will be forced to fight over the remaining resources and in the process will have to kill each other. I however disagreed. I stated that I understood the premise behind which this scenario would take place. However I argued the inevitability of this situation ever presenting itself. I stated that through technological and intellectual achievements we will have the potential to maintain a larger more robust population indefinitely. My logic was the following.... Today we live in a world of 7 billion people. 300 years ago we could never have hoped to maintain such a large population effectively. However due to technological and other developments we are able to. Why must this trend which has been going on since the dawn of men stop now?..... My friend went on to argue that the killing of millions of people might not be such a bad thing because it would help others survive more efficiently and allow them to have more resources. HE ARGUED THAT THE DEATH OF MILLIONS WOULD BE BETTER FOR MANKIND. To this I replied, who decides who dies and who doesn't. I also replied saying that he was out of his mind. I just want to receive reassurance that I was not the one with faulty logic because I was in a setting in which 5 people were supporting his thinking and only two other people were supporting mine. (The people who supported the person with this reasoning supported him primarily because they believe he is some freaken diety and because they don't like me)
    I agree with both of you. If that makes sense. Here are the facts your friend states that I agree with:

    A) we have too many people.
    B) there is 1 cure for the number.
    C) our resources cannot sustain population growth at the current rate.

    Disagreements:

    A) millions dying over a fight is not the only way for populations to drop. Reduction of population could occur if the death rate climbs over birth rate...via populations like china or India having economic growth, political change, and people reducing the number of children they have. Essentially social changes. Essentially the only factor though is that anything that causes death rates to rise, or birth rates to drop (condoms) could do the trick.

    Your points:

    A) yes our technology will enable us to sustain larger populations.
    B) death is bad.

    Disagreement.

    A) our technology is not strong enough to sustain a billion more people. That is why people starve all over the world. Resources are limited. We can't expect them to continue on forever.
    B) death is the only cure. It isn't good. Just the answer. And we need to understand that death is beneficial. It is not desired. It doesn't require death of millions. Just a birth rate drop and death rate increase.


    Personal view:

    I think we are too stupid and greedy to handle rising populations. I think we will experience a natural die off. Like other animals. Disease is a potential killer. Natural disaster (earthquakes and volcanos seem most likely to do the most harm). War for resources is likely as well. We are victims of our success. I think it is inevitable that our population drops. There is no technological development except space travel and colonization that could allow us to grow on this planet. There is a ceiling. All animals hit that ceiling at some point.
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    Re: Is it inevitable that due to rapid population growth millions of people will die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    Exactly!

    If they all committed mass suicide then that would alleviate their overpopulation concerns in one fell swoop.
    Why would anyone seriously advocate killing to deal with overpopulation?

    Maybe we could make a holiday out of it where one day each year it is perfectly legal to murder everyone who has professed that the planet is "overpopulated".

    Problem solved.

    Call it the Anti-Hypocrite day.
    Bizarre comments… yikes.

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