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Thread: Learn english first

  1. #71
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Really? I'm a native speaker of English and I've no idea what you're talking about. What's napalian or samolian? If you mean Nepali or Somali you should say so. Those are English words; learn them.
    So i mispelled the names of foreign countries. Im sure you can spell the name of every country on earth

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    A private employer should be able to deny employment for any damn reason he or she wants.

    This is just another.
    Lets be reasonable...
    I disagree...."any damn reason" is going too far...

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    For the same reason programmers who know C++, HTML5 and Python are more valuable than people who know how to use GeoCities.
    But only if the language is valuable.

    Guess what? I happen to no Pascal, COBOL 1974 and FORTRAN 77.

    Guess how valuable those skills are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Depends, it seems as if Hebrews are indeed flocking to rural Alabama:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/us...hand.html?_r=0

    However, why go to such an extreme case like Hebrew? Why not pick Spanish? Well.... because then the extreme examples would make no sense. In Alabama (or for that matter any state) today, it makes sense that a person who speaks Spanish and English would be move valuable to a company than someone who speaks only English. The country in general has RADICALLY changed - and whether legal or illegal immigration is to blame, there are still millions of hispanics in the country. So in about 15-20 years, learning Spanish will be a necessity for many looking to get hired.
    And do you want to know why I said "rural Alabama"? I actually lived in Dothan for 5 years. But Dothan had a synagogue (actually well known in the area), and it is not really "rural". I was actually thinking more like Cowarts, Headland and Slocomb.

    And knowing Hebrew is still pretty worthless there. I can't exactly see Dothan becoming the "New Fairfax District".

    Oh, and no, knowing Spanish will not be a necessity.

    My wife is Hispanic, and she conducts all her affairs in English when possible.

    My son is Hispanic, and he knows about as much Spanish as I do (mostly for swearing, asking for another beer, and asking where the bathroom is). Most 3-4th Generation know little of their heritage languages, and this is accelerated when their predecessors are of mixed marriages.

    In fact, my son does not even think of himself as "Hispanic", even though he is aware his mom is from South America, and her name is not one commonly found in the US outside of a bar.
    Last edited by Oozlefinch; 11-23-13 at 12:40 PM.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    But only if the language is valuable.

    Guess what? I happen to no Pascal, COBOL 1974 and FORTRAN 77.

    Guess how valuable those skills are?
    Depends, what year are we in? Were they valuable in the 70s? If yes, then my comment stands. Historically and currently, more languages means more value.

    And do you want to know why I said "rural Alabama"? I actually lived in Dothan for 5 years. But Dothan had a synagogue (actually well known in the area), and it is not really "rural". I was actually thinking more like Cowarts, Headland and Slocomb.

    And knowing Hebrew is still pretty worthless there. I can't exactly see Dothan becoming the "New Fairfax District".
    The point is simple. Alabama does not live in a vacuum of its own. I'm sure even in "rural Alabama" you get products that can only be purchased, traded, or produced with the help of people who speak multiple languages. Actually, I can't think of a single thing in my household which could be produced, sold or purchased without there being a middleman who speaks multiple languages thus making the process simpler. The problem with globalization is that not everyone speaks the same language. So people who speak multiple languages (like myself) become a hot commodity. I honestly believe that in the future, there won't be a household where multiple languages aren't spoken. In my household alone we speak 4 different languages at any given time. Not out of necessity but simple pleasure. Once the rest of society in general transcends the fear of "losing" something culturally because of an added language, and sees value in them, knowing additional languages will be as common as eating a sandwich.

    My wife is Hispanic, and she conducts all her affairs in English when possible.

    My son is Hispanic, and he knows about as much Spanish as I do (mostly for swearing, asking for another beer, and asking where the bathroom is). Most 3-4th Generation know little of their heritage languages, and this is accelerated when their predecessors are of mixed marriages.

    In fact, my son does not even think of himself as "Hispanic", even though he is aware his mom is from South America, and her name is not one commonly found in the US outside of a bar.
    That's excellent. Your wife has chosen to fully assimilate herself and her family into 1 language. All without the need for intervention. In the future, when most of society speaks multiple languages, your son will see a need to learn a second language. I doubt it will be Spanish but there are quite a few contenders for what it will: Cantonese, Mandarin, Dutch, German. All are incredibly valuable languages to know if he wants to work as an engineer, executive, lawyer in a world outside of the US. If he decides to stay in "rural Alabama", he can be happy with only having learned English. Again, there is absolutely no need for social intervention in this matter.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 11-23-13 at 12:59 PM.
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    Re: Learn english first

    I believe every human on the planet should speak the same language ... but thats just me.

    Of course, multiple languahes are valuable in todays times. Im not denying that. But i dont think that people who cant understand english well enough to effectively communicate should be in a workplace with a mostly english speaking workforce. Its dangerous and it makes things harder for everyone else.

    The way i see it, you are in our country. You should learn our language

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Linguistic imperialism is a terrible idea. By the 2nd generation most immigrant groups have willingly incorporated themselves into the English world without the need for social intervention. The Polish, Germans and Chinese immigration waves in the early 20th century are proof of this. "Requiring" people to learn a language for any reason is incredibly naive as it doesn't take into account the very human need to hold on to cultural traits and values that can only be passed down through language. That said, languages should be treated with a free market spirit. A person who speaks 2-3 languages should be more valuable than a monoglot. As that already is the case, I see no reason for any further intervention.
    Agree, well stated, but, as an employment condition , in America, one MUST be able to communicate - somehow .
    "Oriental" speaking ballplayers have an interpretor....I wonder who pays for this ??
    Or should I say "Asiatic" rather than "Oriental" ....

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Depends, what year are we in? Were they valuable in the 70s? If yes, then my comment stands. Historically and currently, more languages means more value.


    Well, since I do not have a Tardis in my backyard, obviously I am talking about today, not 40 years ago.

    And by the mid 1980's, those languages were becoming obsolete. By the mid 1990's, they were dead other then those working to migrate programs from one soon to be obsolete platform to another (like IBM 360 to C+). But that once again degenerated to worthless once Y2K was over with.

    Needless to say, I do not mention on my resume or in interviews that I programmed in COBOL on 360 mainframes. It is a geek merit badge of sorts, and in actual use about as worthless as my still remembering G=C800:5. Critical to know if you worked on computers 20 years ago, worthless today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The point is simple. Alabama does not live in a vacuum of its own. I'm sure even in "rural Alabama" you get products that can only be purchased, traded, or produced with the help of people who speak multiple languages. Actually, I can't think of a single thing in my household which could be produced, sold or purchased without there being a middleman who speaks multiple languages thus making the process simpler. The problem with globalization is that not everyone speaks the same language. So people who speak multiple languages (like myself) become a hot commodity. I honestly believe that in the future, there won't be a household where multiple languages aren't spoken. In my household alone we speak 4 different languages at any given time. Not out of necessity but simple pleasure. Once the rest of society in general transcends the fear of "losing" something culturally because of an added language, and sees value in them, knowing additional languages will be as common as eating a sandwich.
    Actually, when we needed something made, we used Redneck Engineering most of the time.

    If we needed things shipped in (like computer parts), we called our supplier in Atlanta, who called their headquarters in California if they needed more motherboards or cases.

    Right now where I work, our lead designer is on the phone almost every other day to China, getting quotes and specs for future products. But he does not know any Chinese language, all conversations are in English. English is much more of an "international language" then any other. And when English is already your primary language, the common person does not have much need to learn another.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

    Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

    So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
    Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

    Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

    I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
    There's no law saying one can't be denied employment based on their language skills. That's a failure within your company.

  9. #79
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Well, since I do not have a Tardis in my backyard, obviously I am talking about today, not 40 years ago.

    And by the mid 1980's, those languages were becoming obsolete. By the mid 1990's, they were dead other then those working to migrate programs from one soon to be obsolete platform to another (like IBM 360 to C+). But that once again degenerated to worthless once Y2K was over with.

    Needless to say, I do not mention on my resume or in interviews that I programmed in COBOL on 360 mainframes. It is a geek merit badge of sorts, and in actual use about as worthless as my still remembering G=C800:5. Critical to know if you worked on computers 20 years ago, worthless today.
    You're talking about having learned multiple languages in/from the 70s being valuable in the 70s and not valuable today. Okay, I get it. Yes, in the 70s, knowing multiple programming languages was valuable. Today some of those languages are not valuable. However, this doesn't invalidate my statements about how valuable multiple languages are anymore than saying "Latin isn't valuable today" is a counter argument to "multiple languages are a valuable asset".

    It's kind of like my line of work. Sure, someone who knows how to use Photoshop is valuable but if the person also knows how to work After Effects, Flash and Maya, they become several times as valuable. Again, time does not change the rule of versatility. People with more skills, are far more valuable regardless of which time they live in. The skills in demand change, the languages in demand change but the rule of thumb still applies: There is more value and more demand for people who speak multiple languages.

    Then again, someone who knows how to use Photoshop 5, Corel Draw was valuable when they first came out and today they're useless. But that doesn't negate the fact that today, as well as 15 years ago - knowing how to use different applications made you a more valuable graphic designer. You're speaking in terms of time, I'm speaking in terms of rules. As far as rules are concerned: linguistic versatility = more value regardless of the time.

    Actually, when we needed something made, we used Redneck Engineering most of the time.

    If we needed things shipped in (like computer parts), we called our supplier in Atlanta, who called their headquarters in California if they needed more motherboards or cases.

    Right now where I work, our lead designer is on the phone almost every other day to China, getting quotes and specs for future products. But he does not know any Chinese language, all conversations are in English. English is much more of an "international language" then any other. And when English is already your primary language, the common person does not have much need to learn another.
    So in China, somebody found it a necessity to learn English in order to do business, effectively adding a second language to their resume. When your company expands its market to South America, it will need people who speak both English and Spanish to sell its product. Adding a 3rd language to its resume. You're not doing much to disprove my statement that more languages are becoming the norm out of both economic and cultural necessity.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 11-23-13 at 01:27 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    but they have the right to speak their mother language at home and teach it to their kids
    Did I advocate that their rights be mandated? Or did I express concern? When I was corrected by someone with expertise, did I not graciously acknowledge that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    My brother is married to a Valencian. Their 3-year-old twins speak Spanish at home with Mum, English to Daddy and at playgroup. When they are with both parents they speak their own mixture of the two. Kids are amazing!
    Yes. Apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    If it bothers you that much why don't you talk to them about it?

    I'm sure that they will be glad to discuss this with you.
    Why don't you read all the posts about the matter and try to refrain from unnecessary snarkiness? Your comment is on the (low, infantile) level of people who say "you can move to another country if you ddon't like something".

    This is purportedly a discussion board. Nothing in my post was rude or disturbing or adamant. I expressed an opinion and backed off when an adult corrected my impression. So, how about you do the same since you have nothing to contribute?

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