Learn english first

AuntiE said:

If they are using the legal process to come here and it takes an extended time, one would think during that time they would find a way to learn the language. Certainly, they may not be fluent; however, it shows a genuine wish to assimilate.

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Well of course they should try, it does show a genuine effort to be worthy of being a citizen of the country. But we shouldn't deny them the right to hold a job because they are not fluent.

Long time ago, where I worked we used to get people looking for work (I spoke enough of their language to know what they were asking) without knowing a word of English.

Considering it was necessary to speak English to follow directions (verbal) to perform what work was available in a safe manner, we required a minimum of fluency in English.

We weren't denying them a job because they spoke another language, the job was denied because they couldn't understand English, which was the primary language for the business.

Smeagol said:

English is not our official language constitutionally. From what I was made to understand, the founding fathers almost put it in the constitution but decided against it because there were Pennsylvania Dutch who did not speak English and wanted to be inclusive of all.

I think the best we can do is work with the Mexican government to start Americanizing Mexico for the benefit of better trade. This should ideally include teaching their kids American civics and fluency in English by the time they graduate. An inadvertent benefit would be immigrants from Mexico would already know American civics and speak English.

I don't think America will ever be a primarily Spanish speaking. English is the benchmark language of the world. Our immigrants want to learn English, it just takes a while. The number 1 advertisers on Spanish language TV in America are English language educational products. Previous generations of immigrants had similar challenges, some never becoming fully fluent despite trying. Its their kids who spoke English from childhood.

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I may have overstated my case for dramatic purposes but in the last 10 years or maybe more, I don't think I've been anywhere or called anywhere and NOT been offered a Spanish option. I've never been offered a third choice "for Mandarin, press 9") so I do have my doubts as to the long term prominence of English.

That's just my own personal insecurity though. I'm not likely to learn another language at this point so it seems like a bigger issue than it may really be.

Oozlefinch said:

Trust me, my business will never expand to South America. We are only involved in Canada because another company is paying us to support their business. We have more then enough business in the US without even trying to go overseas.

China is simply a source of some of our supplies, nothing else.

And to most people, an additional language is rather useless in the US (unless they work in a ghettoized neighborhood). And even in those regions, English is commonly understood. I work in Chinatown, and have yet to meet somebody there that does not know English.

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To most people an additional language is useless unless they live in a ghetto neighrborhood? Hm well there is... anybody who works with exports/imports, immigration, international law enforcement, multicultural organizations, embassies & consulates, government agencies, transnational corporations... that's just off the top of my head. I'm sorry, but your contention that what is already a minority in the world (i.e. monolinguals) are somehow ahead of the pragmatic curve when it comes to being useful is demonstratively false. Higher paying jobs today all but require you to speak 2 languages. :shrug:

SmokeAndMirrors said:

When you are in a new country, you do not force them to conform to you. You have to conform to them.

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Exactly!

Before I went to Panama, I already had some basics in Spanish (everybody living in LA does), so I did not worry to much. I already knew the basic polite phrases and questions, so it was no problem.

Before I went to Japan for the first time, I made sure I knew the proper phrases and body language, for the same reason. And when I returned for my second trip there, I made sure I was a bit better. I loved going out into the community, away from the "American Districts", and as far as I am aware I never embarrassed myself with my behavior.

And when I went to the Middle East a few years ago, it was the same thing. I tried to conform as much as I could, to not give accidental offense to anybody. And my interactions with the locals was always very pleasant.

Why people come here and expect us to conform to them, I never understood. And my wife never understood it either, finding people that live here for 5 years who never bother to learn English as "lazy".

Andalublue said:

His thread title is "Learn English first". If you are going to attack people for having an inferior grasp of the language than you think is acceptable, you are going to leave yourself open to criticism when it appears that your grasp of it isn't all that great either. Claiming that your mistakes are irrelevant or, disingenuously, that your mistakes are merely typing errors, then you are displaying a degree of hypocrisy.

I suspect that these colleagues he speaks of do have some grasp of English, otherwise how would they get a job in the first place? I would guess that they speak it with thick accents and poor grammar and syntax i.e. not up to a standard that Mr. Osophy finds acceptable. It would appear that he lacks a complete grasp of the language too, even though it is probably much greater than theirs, but no, I did not know what he meant when he first talked of 'samolians' and 'napalians'; it took a while to work out he meant Somali and Nepali. Those aren't typing errors, since he repeated them.

People in glass houses are advised not to play with catapults and slingshots.

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I agree that the thread title was a bit over-the-top.

And, I agree that the thread starter might try for a bit more understanding.

But I don't recall him actually saying that the woman needed to learn english, just gain a slightly better grasp - his thread title doesn't really match the OP, in that regard.

Hatuey said:

To most people an additional language is useless unless they live in a ghetto neighrborhood? Hm well there is... anybody who works with exports/imports, immigration, international law enforcement, multicultural organizations, embassies & consulates, government agencies, transnational corporations... that's just off the top of my head. I'm sorry, but your contention that what is already a minority in the world (i.e. monolinguals) are somehow ahead of the pragmatic curve when it comes to being useful is demonstratively false. Higher paying jobs today all but require you to speak 2 languages. :shrug:

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Wow, all I can say is wow.

I did not say ghetto, I said ghettoized. The problem here with most people is that in English, the actual original meaning of ghetto has been lost, replaced with the concept of poor slums. That is not what a real ghetto was like, and certainly not what I meant.

Chinatown is a traditional ghetto, as is Koreatown, Japantown, the Fairfax District, Little Italy, and a great many other similar areas in major cities.

And I have lived in and around many of these neighborhoods. And no, speaking an additional language is not of much help, because most that live there are 4-8th generation Americans, and speak English just fine, thank you very much.

BTW, my wife is a nurse, and is naturally bilingual (English is her second language). And how much has this benefited her?

(turns and asks her)

Not much, she said during her internship in a LA Community Hospital, she used it a lot (that was 25 years ago), and she has not used it since. All of her interactions with patients and clinical staff since then was in English.

As for where I work, I am making a respectable salary, and only speak English. As does almost everybody I work with (Honesto is one of my co-workers, a 3rd generation Mexican-American who knows about as much Spanish as I do). We have people where I work from France, Poland, India, Germany, and Columbia. Everybody speaks English.

And our entire client base is in the United States (other then a few facilities in Canada). So what use would any other language be to any of us?

You fail to realize that outside of small areas, an extra language is of no real use here. How much benefit is a Vietnamese speaker other then in a place like Garden Grove? Not much.

But yes, I am aware you are going to beat this to death, and refuse to concede anything because your Liberalism insists you are correct. So tell me, if you spoke Cambodian, how much of a benefit would that be where you work?

Phil_Osophy said:

So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?

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Is this person a legal immigrant?

How did he/she pass the tests given to become a citizen? The tests are in English as far as I know.

Phil_Osophy said:

So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?

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I'm pretty sure you don't have to hire someone in a position if they can't speak the language of your customers.....

Oozlefinch said:

I believe they should.

I lived in El Paso for 6 years, and it always bothered me when I would go to a local store (and I am talking a major department store chain), and have cashiers who could not speak English. My belief is that if you are going to work here, you need to be able to speak the language.

And before anybody even tries to accuse me of discrimination, you have to realize that my wife shares the same beliefs. And she was not born in the US. She moved here when she was 17, and when we first met I could barely understand her. In the years since we first met, she has become perfectly fluent in English (to the point where most are surprised to learn she was born in South America), and she finds it offensive when people who live here do not even try to learn the native language.

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Does your wife speak English with a Texas accent?

Phil_Osophy said:

Well, i will say this; she is the most productive worker on my team. But her not being able to speak english (very well... at all) cripples overall prpductivity and takes more time and poses potential safety hazards.
i think this is a bit extreme. Most immigrants are very productive people. I dont know why so many of them dont just learn the damn language. If i went to live in mexico (hypothetically of course. I have no interest in that ****hole), i would make it a top priority to learn spanish for several reasons. I think they are intelligent enough to learn english, but people have overaccomodated so much, i guess some just dont care to.

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I live in Mexico. I can't tell you how many times I have Heard from people that it is just too hard to learn English. That is the idea people have here so they don't even try.

On the other side I got a call from my local post office to help with an English speaking customer. He was an army officer, which he told me many times, and he was waiting for a package that was supposedly sent 1 day service from Ventura California. First off there is no such thing as 1 day service to Mexico through the US Post Office. As he was ranting he told me over and over and was very upset about the fact that the people at the Mexican Postal Service did not speak English and he did not speak any Spanish at all. I don't know why he would come to a Spanish speaking country and expect his language to be accomodated.

When I got here I had to learn Spanish because not enough people speak English. That is just the way it is, but this guy was very upset that nobody at the post office spoke English.

specklebang said:

I do believe that English is the language of our nation and it annoys me that my neighbors, who are good folks, speak Spanish to their little kids.

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Why does that bother you? Most immigrant communities are like that. I've known many families from Russia over the past 5 years and they all speak Russian at home to their children. The kids, interestingly, speak English even to each other. My Grandmother didn't hear English the first 5 years of her life growing up in a Polish immigrant family (she was born in the US, but her father wasn't). Her kids (my mother and uncle) don't speak Polish at all.

Andalublue said:

My brother is married to a Valencian. Their 3-year-old twins speak Spanish at home with Mum, English to Daddy and at playgroup. When they are with both parents they speak their own mixture of the two. Kids are amazing!

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How funny you criticize somebody else for using words you don't recognize then you use a Word like Valencian.

What is Valencian?

Phil_Osophy said:

I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?

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You do get a choice. But you also have a responsibility. You're a steward, not a tyrant, and peoples lives are spent at work, and often tied in more ways than one to work, are you really unable to work with them or it's just more challenging? Can you not find a way to work around it or improve it? sure, we'd all like to turn our nose up at anyone who is not a star player and demand better people so our job is easy...but that's costly, in more ways than one.

Would you fire the deaf guy because it's harder to communicate to him? The mute guy? I've hired both and we work around it. Is it more challenging? Sure. Is it so bad I have to fire them? No. People do not exist to make your job easy. It should be more challenging if you're in leadership. You are supposed to take challenging situations and still get outcomes from them. That's the point. And maybe a little along the way you end up growing to. Growing into what though?

One person is slower, one is harder to communicate with, one is paranoid and defensive, one is flat out annoying, one is loud and obnoxious....are you not good enough to juggle all that? Maybe they need a new manager who can handle their job not being "easy"

If it's not a high stakes career/profession, I would say make the best of your team and be a good steward. And yes, communication is a valid reason not to hire someone, and you can fire at will too. But should you. Focus on their strengths instead, it's often a matter of perspective.

For me personally only if someone really triggers me emotionally and has me really angry all the time do I start to consider needing to make a change. If it's just frustrating and annoying..big deal. If you go home all worked up and can't stand to look at them without raging...then you'd need to make a change. But often you can move someone due to personal clash, not necessarily fire them. It takes two you know!

Oozlefinch said:

Trust me, my business will never expand to South America. We are only involved in Canada because another company is paying us to support their business. We have more then enough business in the US without even trying to go overseas.

China is simply a source of some of our supplies, nothing else.

And to most people, an additional language is rather useless in the US (unless they work in a ghettoized neighborhood). And even in those regions, English is commonly understood. I work in Chinatown, and have yet to meet somebody there that does not know English.

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In my opinión it is good to know at least some spanish so you know what people are saying around you. It could be a safety issue.

You would be amazed at the things people say when they think you don't understand.

Mach said:

You do get a choice. But you also have a responsibility. You're a steward, not a tyrant, and peoples lives are spent at work, and often tied in more ways than one to work, are you really unable to work with them or it's just more challenging? Can you not find a way to work around it or improve it? sure, we'd all like to turn our nose up at anyone who is not a star player and demand better people so our job is easy...but that's costly, in more ways than one.

Would you fire the deaf guy because it's harder to communicate to him? The mute guy? I've hired both and we work around it. Is it more challenging? Sure. Is it so bad I have to fire them? No. People do not exist to make your job easy. It should be more challenging if you're in leadership. You are supposed to take challenging situations and still get outcomes from them. That's the point. And maybe a little along the way you end up growing to. Growing into what though?

One person is slower, one is harder to communicate with, one is paranoid and defensive, one is flat out annoying, one is loud and obnoxious....are you not good enough to juggle all that? Maybe they need a new manager who can handle their job not being "easy"

If it's not a high stakes career/profession, I would say make the best of your team and be a good steward. And yes, communication is a valid reason not to hire someone, and you can fire at will too. But should you. Focus on their strengths instead, it's often a matter of perspective.

For me personally only if someone really triggers me emotionally and has me really angry all the time do I start to consider needing to make a change. If it's just frustrating and annoying..big deal. If you go home all worked up and can't stand to look at them without raging...then you'd need to make a change. But often you can move someone due to personal clash, not necessarily fire them. It takes two you know!

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I don't agree with this at all.

It is not a managers job to juggle problem people.

If the persons situation is counter productive to the business, they are gone. Period. Why does the manager need to spend extra time dealing with problem employees? That costs the company money and productivity.

It seems like you will work around a persons problems unless they rub you the wrong way, and then they are gone. Why not work around your emotional problems?

Mason66 said:

Does your wife speak English with a Texas accent?

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Why would she? We only lived in Texas from 08-12, and have been married for 28 years.

Interestingly enough, most American's can't place her accent at all anymore. Most people guess that she is Russian or Israeli, it is now a slight accent more noticed because of the way she speaks then an actual accent itself.

Mason66 said:

In my opinión it is good to know at least some spanish so you know what people are saying around you. It could be a safety issue.

You would be amazed at the things people say when they think you don't understand.

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Oh, I know some Spanish, understand far more then I speak.

And that is an issue my Wife always had. Most do not realize that is her native language, and she always catches them making remarks about "white people" and "Americans" like we are stupid and lazy and make to much money so should give it to them. Interestingly enough, that is only something she heard in El Paso, seems to be an attitude more common in Juarez then in most of the rest of Mexico.

Of course, she speaks Spanish with a Castilian accent (specifically Rioplatense), which she says always makes people from Mexico sit up and take notice of her. She said it was almost as hard learning the Mexican dialect as it was to learn English.

Andalublue said:

This is true. When you move to a country you should learn their language, but isn't there a bit of confusion in parts of the States where you'd need to learn two languages: English and Spanish? That's a tall order for a lot of people, and will take time. In the meantime, should those people be excluded from the workforce? Also, whilst you should learn the host language, you'll never learn it well enough for some people's taste. That's why I tend to get annoyed at apparently semi-literate types on DP attempting to criticise others' use of English when their own can hardly be a source of pride.

The whole 'Grammar Nazi' thing shows up a cultural difference, not between nationalities, but between mindsets. I, and many friends, family and acquaintances, would not agree with the view that you only need to speak or write English well enough for someone else to understand your meaning. While that is fine for speakers of English as a second language, for native speakers I'd hold them to a higher requirement. If you believe that a language is something more than merely a means of communicating basic information, that it encompasses art and conveys character and nuance and permits the expression of imagination and the metaphysical, then the phrase, 'y'know what I mean?' should not be required.

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This is completely incorrect. There are no states in the US where you "need to learn two languages". I grew up in Texas, one of the states with the most Spanish speakers, and I at no point in my entire life have ever needed Spanish. It is not the language of the US, nor is it a requirement. Some people try to get cute and say "Well, officially the US has no language". And to that I say "Bull****."

Our constitution and laws are written in English, our police officers all speak English, we are an English speaking country. I'm an immigrant myself, but I learned my host nation's language and don't act like a lazy immigrant expecting them to learn mine.

It's lazy, disrespectful, and frankly a little dangerous when immigrants come en masse and refuse to even make an attempt to learn English.

Phil_Osophy said:

So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?

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Here's a suggestion: Make sure your own English--notice that the word is capitalized--is up to par before criticizing the English of others.

Phil_Osophy said:

So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

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I seem to remember in my head about those persons who wish a CDL have to speak and write English satisfactorily?

Mason66 said:

I live in Mexico. I can't tell you how many times I have Heard from people that it is just too hard to learn English. That is the idea people have here so they don't even try.

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English is one of the more difficult languages to learn. It's due to English's tendency to borrow words and sentence structures from other langauges and all the strange exceptions we have (silent letters, bizarre spellings, irregular pluralizations, an abnormal amount of idioms, etc.). It's right up there with both Cantonese & Mandarin Chinese and Arabic in terms of difficulty.

RabidAlpaca said:

It's lazy, disrespectful, and frankly a little dangerous when immigrants come en masse and refuse to even make an attempt to learn English.

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Then you know how discouraging it is when assholes publicly attack you for not being able to speak their language perfectly. As if they have this grandeous sense of entitlement to be the sole enforces of their nation's language policies, and that allows them to disregard any display of respect towards second language learners. There's a number of times I've had to console my students and encourage them not to be discouraged by the rude ENGLISH ONLY 'MURICAN!!! person they unfortunately encountered.

Mason66 said:

I don't agree with this at all.

It is not a managers job to juggle problem people.

If the persons situation is counter productive to the business, they are gone. Period. Why does the manager need to spend extra time dealing with problem employees? That costs the company money and productivity.

It seems like you will work around a persons problems unless they rub you the wrong way, and then they are gone. Why not work around your emotional problems?

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Have you ever been in a managerial position?! Everytime I've ever had direct reports, and I'm sure others can verify this as well, about 40% of your time is dedicated to juggling people's issues. I never had the authority to fire employees, but if I took a managerial style like you've suggested, and fired anyone who was "counter productive" to the business at some point, I wouldn't have any employees.

Edit: I mean I've seen everything from sick kids, to medical issues (migrane headaches), to spousal issues (loss of job, divorce), to problem employees (chatting too much, disorganized, lazy, doesn't attend meetings or answer emails, late to work, stressed out, makes or does strange things) to heck if I know. It's flipping refreshing when you have an employee that doesn't cause issues in one way or another.

brothern said:

English is one of the more difficult languages to learn. It's due to English's tendency to borrow words and sentence structures from other langauges and all the strange exceptions we have (silent letters, bizarre spellings, irregular pluralizations, an abnormal amount of idioms, etc.). It's right up there with both Cantonese & Mandarin Chinese and Arabic in terms of difficulty.


Then you know how discouraging it is when assholes publicly attack you for not being able to speak their language perfectly. As if they have this grandeous sense of entitlement to be the sole enforces of their nation's language policies, and that allows them to disregard any display of respect towards second language learners. There's a number of times I've had to console my students and encourage them not to be discouraged by the rude ENGLISH ONLY 'MURICAN!!! person they unfortunately encountered.

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No, I don't know that, nor have I ever scolded anyone who makes an attempt but is bad at it. It's one thing to be in America for 2 years and have bad English, it's another one entirely to be here 10 years and not speak a word.

Many people don't try, plain and simple. Mastering a language is VERY hard, but learning the basic syntax with a basic vocabulary is quite easy and can be done very quickly.

rocket88 said:

Why does that bother you? Most immigrant communities are like that. I've known many families from Russia over the past 5 years and they all speak Russian at home to their children. The kids, interestingly, speak English even to each other. My Grandmother didn't hear English the first 5 years of her life growing up in a Polish immigrant family (she was born in the US, but her father wasn't). Her kids (my mother and uncle) don't speak Polish at all.

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I hope that by now you read my subsequent posts and that you realize I backed off my original position because I'm here to learn and be corrected as much or more than to drop off opinions and run for cover.

But when I wrote the original post, the one you are reacting to, my dismay was that I felt the children were being diminished in opportunity because the parents were failing to prepare them to become effective in their primary language of the land and thus condemning them to a lower set of opportunities. I've noticed that Asians tend to speak English to their children and Asians seem to be the most successful group of New Americans. From this, I extrapolated an opinion that was apparently incorrect and I have no problem admitting that I am wrong.

Sorry for this one last push at anecdotal evidence but my son was born in Korea to my (then) Korean wife. Because I was an absent Father, working, working, working to get my export business going, I rarely spoke to my child (I am ashamed of this and have apologized to him and supported him fully through his adult career because I screwed up and I know it). Well, when we returned to America when he was 5, we had to spend thousands of dollars sending him to speech therapy because his early use of Korean had shaped his mouth and had made certain words/sounds hard for him to pronounce. So, I was under the impression that it was harmful to maintain another language as a child. Apparently, my personal experience was somewhat unique and most children become readily bi-lingual without these speech problems. Good. I'd rather be wrong than right about this.

Mason66 said:

I don't agree with this at all.
It is not a managers job to juggle problem people.

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It's the very definition of real life management. juggling people problems. Look, I wish it were not the case, but once you manage a lot of people, especially if you aren't the one solely in charge of hiring, that's your job, like it or not.

Furthermore, everyone is a problem person to someone else, or under certain conditions.

If the persons situation is counter productive to the business, they are gone. Period. Why does the manager need to spend extra time dealing with problem employees? That costs the company money and productivity.

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Again, pros/cons. Struggle with English, but make it up in productivity...why is that so hard to understand?

It seems like you will work around a persons problems unless they rub you the wrong way, and then they are gone. Why not work around your emotional problems?

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I don't mean to say only people that trigger that get fired, only that it's the most common non-productivity related cause for me to fire someone. I can see how that could be interpreted the other way.

I'm simply pointing out that struggling with English as a second language is not in and of itself, under average circumstances, a reasonable cause for firing someone. You can, but I would think most people have a fair number of dings on their work ability, and it's expected that they make up for those in other areas, and are net-productive for the company.

I see people all the time with the white-American attitude that if someone doesn't speak English they are lazy assholes. I tend to take "can't speak good English" with a grain of salt. And what industry?...in technology, if you can't handle bad Asian accents you're in the wrong business

There are times when communication is so bad they cannot do their job despite efforts to communicate and work-around. In those cases, you fire them because they cannot perform their job adequately. The speaking bad English isn't why you fire them specifically, if that makes sense. Of course if it's your business, do what you will!