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Thread: Learn english first

  1. #121
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I live in Mexico. I can't tell you how many times I have Heard from people that it is just too hard to learn English. That is the idea people have here so they don't even try.
    English is one of the more difficult languages to learn. It's due to English's tendency to borrow words and sentence structures from other langauges and all the strange exceptions we have (silent letters, bizarre spellings, irregular pluralizations, an abnormal amount of idioms, etc.). It's right up there with both Cantonese & Mandarin Chinese and Arabic in terms of difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It's lazy, disrespectful, and frankly a little dangerous when immigrants come en masse and refuse to even make an attempt to learn English.
    Then you know how discouraging it is when assholes publicly attack you for not being able to speak their language perfectly. As if they have this grandeous sense of entitlement to be the sole enforces of their nation's language policies, and that allows them to disregard any display of respect towards second language learners. There's a number of times I've had to console my students and encourage them not to be discouraged by the rude ENGLISH ONLY 'MURICAN!!! person they unfortunately encountered.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I don't agree with this at all.

    It is not a managers job to juggle problem people.

    If the persons situation is counter productive to the business, they are gone. Period. Why does the manager need to spend extra time dealing with problem employees? That costs the company money and productivity.

    It seems like you will work around a persons problems unless they rub you the wrong way, and then they are gone. Why not work around your emotional problems?
    Have you ever been in a managerial position?! Everytime I've ever had direct reports, and I'm sure others can verify this as well, about 40% of your time is dedicated to juggling people's issues. I never had the authority to fire employees, but if I took a managerial style like you've suggested, and fired anyone who was "counter productive" to the business at some point, I wouldn't have any employees.

    Edit: I mean I've seen everything from sick kids, to medical issues (migrane headaches), to spousal issues (loss of job, divorce), to problem employees (chatting too much, disorganized, lazy, doesn't attend meetings or answer emails, late to work, stressed out, makes or does strange things) to heck if I know. It's flipping refreshing when you have an employee that doesn't cause issues in one way or another.
    Last edited by brothern; 11-25-13 at 02:19 PM.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    English is one of the more difficult languages to learn. It's due to English's tendency to borrow words and sentence structures from other langauges and all the strange exceptions we have (silent letters, bizarre spellings, irregular pluralizations, an abnormal amount of idioms, etc.). It's right up there with both Cantonese & Mandarin Chinese and Arabic in terms of difficulty.


    Then you know how discouraging it is when assholes publicly attack you for not being able to speak their language perfectly. As if they have this grandeous sense of entitlement to be the sole enforces of their nation's language policies, and that allows them to disregard any display of respect towards second language learners. There's a number of times I've had to console my students and encourage them not to be discouraged by the rude ENGLISH ONLY 'MURICAN!!! person they unfortunately encountered.
    No, I don't know that, nor have I ever scolded anyone who makes an attempt but is bad at it. It's one thing to be in America for 2 years and have bad English, it's another one entirely to be here 10 years and not speak a word.

    Many people don't try, plain and simple. Mastering a language is VERY hard, but learning the basic syntax with a basic vocabulary is quite easy and can be done very quickly.
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Why does that bother you? Most immigrant communities are like that. I've known many families from Russia over the past 5 years and they all speak Russian at home to their children. The kids, interestingly, speak English even to each other. My Grandmother didn't hear English the first 5 years of her life growing up in a Polish immigrant family (she was born in the US, but her father wasn't). Her kids (my mother and uncle) don't speak Polish at all.
    I hope that by now you read my subsequent posts and that you realize I backed off my original position because I'm here to learn and be corrected as much or more than to drop off opinions and run for cover.

    But when I wrote the original post, the one you are reacting to, my dismay was that I felt the children were being diminished in opportunity because the parents were failing to prepare them to become effective in their primary language of the land and thus condemning them to a lower set of opportunities. I've noticed that Asians tend to speak English to their children and Asians seem to be the most successful group of New Americans. From this, I extrapolated an opinion that was apparently incorrect and I have no problem admitting that I am wrong.

    Sorry for this one last push at anecdotal evidence but my son was born in Korea to my (then) Korean wife. Because I was an absent Father, working, working, working to get my export business going, I rarely spoke to my child (I am ashamed of this and have apologized to him and supported him fully through his adult career because I screwed up and I know it). Well, when we returned to America when he was 5, we had to spend thousands of dollars sending him to speech therapy because his early use of Korean had shaped his mouth and had made certain words/sounds hard for him to pronounce. So, I was under the impression that it was harmful to maintain another language as a child. Apparently, my personal experience was somewhat unique and most children become readily bi-lingual without these speech problems. Good. I'd rather be wrong than right about this.

  5. #125
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I don't agree with this at all.
    It is not a managers job to juggle problem people.
    It's the very definition of real life management. juggling people problems. Look, I wish it were not the case, but once you manage a lot of people, especially if you aren't the one solely in charge of hiring, that's your job, like it or not.

    Furthermore, everyone is a problem person to someone else, or under certain conditions.

    If the persons situation is counter productive to the business, they are gone. Period. Why does the manager need to spend extra time dealing with problem employees? That costs the company money and productivity.
    Again, pros/cons. Struggle with English, but make it up in productivity...why is that so hard to understand?

    It seems like you will work around a persons problems unless they rub you the wrong way, and then they are gone. Why not work around your emotional problems?
    I don't mean to say only people that trigger that get fired, only that it's the most common non-productivity related cause for me to fire someone. I can see how that could be interpreted the other way.

    I'm simply pointing out that struggling with English as a second language is not in and of itself, under average circumstances, a reasonable cause for firing someone. You can, but I would think most people have a fair number of dings on their work ability, and it's expected that they make up for those in other areas, and are net-productive for the company.

    I see people all the time with the white-American attitude that if someone doesn't speak English they are lazy assholes. I tend to take "can't speak good English" with a grain of salt. And what industry?...in technology, if you can't handle bad Asian accents you're in the wrong business

    There are times when communication is so bad they cannot do their job despite efforts to communicate and work-around. In those cases, you fire them because they cannot perform their job adequately. The speaking bad English isn't why you fire them specifically, if that makes sense. Of course if it's your business, do what you will!

  6. #126
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    It's the very definition of real life management. juggling people problems. Look, I wish it were not the case, but once you manage a lot of people, especially if you aren't the one solely in charge of hiring, that's your job, like it or not.

    Furthermore, everyone is a problem person to someone else, or under certain conditions.

    Again, pros/cons. Struggle with English, but make it up in productivity...why is that so hard to understand?


    I don't mean to say only people that trigger that get fired, only that it's the most common non-productivity related cause for me to fire someone. I can see how that could be interpreted the other way.

    I'm simply pointing out that struggling with English as a second language is not in and of itself, under average circumstances, a reasonable cause for firing someone. You can, but I would think most people have a fair number of dings on their work ability, and it's expected that they make up for those in other areas, and are net-productive for the company.

    I see people all the time with the white-American attitude that if someone doesn't speak English they are lazy assholes. I tend to take "can't speak good English" with a grain of salt. And what industry?...in technology, if you can't handle bad Asian accents you're in the wrong business

    There are times when communication is so bad they cannot do their job despite efforts to communicate and work-around. In those cases, you fire them because they cannot perform their job adequately. The speaking bad English isn't why you fire them specifically, if that makes sense. Of course if it's your business, do what you will!
    The OP stated that the employee that can't understand spanish is not doing the job he needs that person to do.

    The fact that the person does not understand English is the problem.

    I think the trick is to not hire problem people in the first place. I do not think if the person speaks another language is any problem at all if it doesn't affect their job performance.

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I live in Mexico. I can't tell you how many times I have Heard from people that it is just too hard to learn English. That is the idea people have here so they don't even try.

    On the other side I got a call from my local post office to help with an English speaking customer. He was an army officer, which he told me many times, and he was waiting for a package that was supposedly sent 1 day service from Ventura California. First off there is no such thing as 1 day service to Mexico through the US Post Office. As he was ranting he told me over and over and was very upset about the fact that the people at the Mexican Postal Service did not speak English and he did not speak any Spanish at all. I don't know why he would come to a Spanish speaking country and expect his language to be accomodated.

    When I got here I had to learn Spanish because not enough people speak English. That is just the way it is, but this guy was very upset that nobody at the post office spoke English.
    I have heard people from other countries say that English is one of the harder languages to learn. Primarily because our grammar rules are inconsistent compared to most other languages.
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    No, I don't know that, nor have I ever scolded anyone who makes an attempt but is bad at it. It's one thing to be in America for 2 years and have bad English, it's another one entirely to be here 10 years and not speak a word.

    Many people don't try, plain and simple. Mastering a language is VERY hard, but learning the basic syntax with a basic vocabulary is quite easy and can be done very quickly.
    It's the people that don't even try that I have no patience.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  9. #129
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    Re: Learn english first

    My complaint wasnt that she wasnt an english professor. Its that she cant understand the most basic sentences.

    And yes i made misrakes spelling the names of foreign countries.

    And yes i failed to properly capitalize things. Im on my phone and its easier to just type without capitalizing and punctuating everything. Quite frankly, i dont give a ****.

    I can still communicate effectively.

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I agree that the thread title was a bit over-the-top.

    And, I agree that the thread starter might try for a bit more understanding.

    But I don't recall him actually saying that the woman needed to learn english, just gain a slightly better grasp - his thread title doesn't really match the OP, in that regard.
    Yes the title was over the top.

    My grasp is just fine. So what if mispelled two words?

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