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Thread: Learn english first

  1. #101
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by AuntiE View Post
    If they are using the legal process to come here and it takes an extended time, one would think during that time they would find a way to learn the language. Certainly, they may not be fluent; however, it shows a genuine wish to assimilate.
    Well of course they should try, it does show a genuine effort to be worthy of being a citizen of the country. But we shouldn't deny them the right to hold a job because they are not fluent.
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    Re: Learn english first

    Long time ago, where I worked we used to get people looking for work (I spoke enough of their language to know what they were asking) without knowing a word of English.

    Considering it was necessary to speak English to follow directions (verbal) to perform what work was available in a safe manner, we required a minimum of fluency in English.

    We weren't denying them a job because they spoke another language, the job was denied because they couldn't understand English, which was the primary language for the business.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    English is not our official language constitutionally. From what I was made to understand, the founding fathers almost put it in the constitution but decided against it because there were Pennsylvania Dutch who did not speak English and wanted to be inclusive of all.

    I think the best we can do is work with the Mexican government to start Americanizing Mexico for the benefit of better trade. This should ideally include teaching their kids American civics and fluency in English by the time they graduate. An inadvertent benefit would be immigrants from Mexico would already know American civics and speak English.

    I don't think America will ever be a primarily Spanish speaking. English is the benchmark language of the world. Our immigrants want to learn English, it just takes a while. The number 1 advertisers on Spanish language TV in America are English language educational products. Previous generations of immigrants had similar challenges, some never becoming fully fluent despite trying. Its their kids who spoke English from childhood.
    I may have overstated my case for dramatic purposes but in the last 10 years or maybe more, I don't think I've been anywhere or called anywhere and NOT been offered a Spanish option. I've never been offered a third choice "for Mandarin, press 9") so I do have my doubts as to the long term prominence of English.

    That's just my own personal insecurity though. I'm not likely to learn another language at this point so it seems like a bigger issue than it may really be.

  4. #104
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Trust me, my business will never expand to South America. We are only involved in Canada because another company is paying us to support their business. We have more then enough business in the US without even trying to go overseas.

    China is simply a source of some of our supplies, nothing else.

    And to most people, an additional language is rather useless in the US (unless they work in a ghettoized neighborhood). And even in those regions, English is commonly understood. I work in Chinatown, and have yet to meet somebody there that does not know English.
    To most people an additional language is useless unless they live in a ghetto neighrborhood? Hm well there is... anybody who works with exports/imports, immigration, international law enforcement, multicultural organizations, embassies & consulates, government agencies, transnational corporations... that's just off the top of my head. I'm sorry, but your contention that what is already a minority in the world (i.e. monolinguals) are somehow ahead of the pragmatic curve when it comes to being useful is demonstratively false. Higher paying jobs today all but require you to speak 2 languages.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  5. #105
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    When you are in a new country, you do not force them to conform to you. You have to conform to them.
    Exactly!

    Before I went to Panama, I already had some basics in Spanish (everybody living in LA does), so I did not worry to much. I already knew the basic polite phrases and questions, so it was no problem.

    Before I went to Japan for the first time, I made sure I knew the proper phrases and body language, for the same reason. And when I returned for my second trip there, I made sure I was a bit better. I loved going out into the community, away from the "American Districts", and as far as I am aware I never embarrassed myself with my behavior.

    And when I went to the Middle East a few years ago, it was the same thing. I tried to conform as much as I could, to not give accidental offense to anybody. And my interactions with the locals was always very pleasant.

    Why people come here and expect us to conform to them, I never understood. And my wife never understood it either, finding people that live here for 5 years who never bother to learn English as "lazy".
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  6. #106
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    His thread title is "Learn English first". If you are going to attack people for having an inferior grasp of the language than you think is acceptable, you are going to leave yourself open to criticism when it appears that your grasp of it isn't all that great either. Claiming that your mistakes are irrelevant or, disingenuously, that your mistakes are merely typing errors, then you are displaying a degree of hypocrisy.

    I suspect that these colleagues he speaks of do have some grasp of English, otherwise how would they get a job in the first place? I would guess that they speak it with thick accents and poor grammar and syntax i.e. not up to a standard that Mr. Osophy finds acceptable. It would appear that he lacks a complete grasp of the language too, even though it is probably much greater than theirs, but no, I did not know what he meant when he first talked of 'samolians' and 'napalians'; it took a while to work out he meant Somali and Nepali. Those aren't typing errors, since he repeated them.

    People in glass houses are advised not to play with catapults and slingshots.
    I agree that the thread title was a bit over-the-top.

    And, I agree that the thread starter might try for a bit more understanding.

    But I don't recall him actually saying that the woman needed to learn english, just gain a slightly better grasp - his thread title doesn't really match the OP, in that regard.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    To most people an additional language is useless unless they live in a ghetto neighrborhood? Hm well there is... anybody who works with exports/imports, immigration, international law enforcement, multicultural organizations, embassies & consulates, government agencies, transnational corporations... that's just off the top of my head. I'm sorry, but your contention that what is already a minority in the world (i.e. monolinguals) are somehow ahead of the pragmatic curve when it comes to being useful is demonstratively false. Higher paying jobs today all but require you to speak 2 languages.
    Wow, all I can say is wow.

    I did not say ghetto, I said ghettoized. The problem here with most people is that in English, the actual original meaning of ghetto has been lost, replaced with the concept of poor slums. That is not what a real ghetto was like, and certainly not what I meant.

    Chinatown is a traditional ghetto, as is Koreatown, Japantown, the Fairfax District, Little Italy, and a great many other similar areas in major cities.

    And I have lived in and around many of these neighborhoods. And no, speaking an additional language is not of much help, because most that live there are 4-8th generation Americans, and speak English just fine, thank you very much.

    BTW, my wife is a nurse, and is naturally bilingual (English is her second language). And how much has this benefited her?

    (turns and asks her)

    Not much, she said during her internship in a LA Community Hospital, she used it a lot (that was 25 years ago), and she has not used it since. All of her interactions with patients and clinical staff since then was in English.

    As for where I work, I am making a respectable salary, and only speak English. As does almost everybody I work with (Honesto is one of my co-workers, a 3rd generation Mexican-American who knows about as much Spanish as I do). We have people where I work from France, Poland, India, Germany, and Columbia. Everybody speaks English.

    And our entire client base is in the United States (other then a few facilities in Canada). So what use would any other language be to any of us?

    You fail to realize that outside of small areas, an extra language is of no real use here. How much benefit is a Vietnamese speaker other then in a place like Garden Grove? Not much.

    But yes, I am aware you are going to beat this to death, and refuse to concede anything because your Liberalism insists you are correct. So tell me, if you spoke Cambodian, how much of a benefit would that be where you work?
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  8. #108
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

    Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

    So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
    Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

    Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

    I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
    Is this person a legal immigrant?

    How did he/she pass the tests given to become a citizen? The tests are in English as far as I know.

  9. #109
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

    Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

    So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
    Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

    Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

    I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
    I'm pretty sure you don't have to hire someone in a position if they can't speak the language of your customers.....
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    I believe they should.

    I lived in El Paso for 6 years, and it always bothered me when I would go to a local store (and I am talking a major department store chain), and have cashiers who could not speak English. My belief is that if you are going to work here, you need to be able to speak the language.

    And before anybody even tries to accuse me of discrimination, you have to realize that my wife shares the same beliefs. And she was not born in the US. She moved here when she was 17, and when we first met I could barely understand her. In the years since we first met, she has become perfectly fluent in English (to the point where most are surprised to learn she was born in South America), and she finds it offensive when people who live here do not even try to learn the native language.
    Does your wife speak English with a Texas accent?

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