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Thread: Learn english first

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    It's not THAT important.

    You still knew what he meant.
    His thread title is "Learn English first". If you are going to attack people for having an inferior grasp of the language than you think is acceptable, you are going to leave yourself open to criticism when it appears that your grasp of it isn't all that great either. Claiming that your mistakes are irrelevant or, disingenuously, that your mistakes are merely typing errors, then you are displaying a degree of hypocrisy.

    I suspect that these colleagues he speaks of do have some grasp of English, otherwise how would they get a job in the first place? I would guess that they speak it with thick accents and poor grammar and syntax i.e. not up to a standard that Mr. Osophy finds acceptable. It would appear that he lacks a complete grasp of the language too, even though it is probably much greater than theirs, but no, I did not know what he meant when he first talked of 'samolians' and 'napalians'; it took a while to work out he meant Somali and Nepali. Those aren't typing errors, since he repeated them.

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Sounds as if taking a course in conversational or workplace Spanish will be very helpful to you.
    Why? Did I miss a memo requiring me to know someone else's language as opposed the individual learning the usual and customary language of the United States.

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by JJB3333 View Post
    Admittedly they should learn English first, but that would require at least 2 more years of work on top of the already months, even years it takes to get in here in the first place. Are you really going to deny a person the right to even make money because they can hold a conversation with you?
    Also as a leader in a work place with people who speak other language, didn't you have to take a class or something? I know my dad did when he got a managerial spot.
    If they are using the legal process to come here and it takes an extended time, one would think during that time they would find a way to learn the language. Certainly, they may not be fluent; however, it shows a genuine wish to assimilate.

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconvenience of too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Learn english first

    It's quite possible that the OP's employer is aware of the language "issue" and is perfectly fine with it.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Learn english first

    When you are in a new country, you do not force them to conform to you. You have to conform to them.

    I never went anywhere -- even for a week -- without learning at least some basics. Enough to deal with service people. That takes literally a couple days, if you're serious about it. Anywhere I went for longer, I tried to get my skills up more. Often not quite conversational, but passable enough. And these weren't even places I was living. I was just passing through.

    When I moved to NZ, I went over all of the spelling and grammatical differences and changed my resume and cover letters to match THEIR conventions of English. I got it down well enough that I could write in their conventions without thinking about it. When I moved back to the US, I changed it back to US English.

    It is only polite. I would have been embarrassed of myself showing up in a country not knowing a single word of the native language, and I certainly would be too ashamed to ask anyone to hire me for anything. I wouldn't even submit my resume in the wrong dialect, let alone the wrong language all together.

    It isn't a nationalism thing. It isn't an immigrant-hating thing. It's just courtesy.

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

    Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

    So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
    Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

    Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

    I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
    YES, they absolutely should be able to refuse employment. Not being able to communicate with your employees is a HUGE issue. If you're going to move to another country, you need to put in an effort to learn the language. I moved to Germany and I had to go through a lot of tests and certifications to prove that I spoke the language so that I could go to college there and get hired for a job.

    People who are too lazy to make a serious attempt at learning their host nation's language don't deserve any pity.

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Sounds as if taking a course in conversational or workplace Spanish will be very helpful to you.
    Yes, that's the solution. Let's not require immigrants to learn the host nation's language, let's force everyone else to learn every language in the world. You're passing the buck and making excuse for nothing short of god damn laziness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Really? I'm a native speaker of English and I've no idea what you're talking about. What's napalian or samolian? If you mean Nepali or Somali you should say so. Those are English words; learn them.
    It's important to note that you learned your host nation's language, as I did mine. There's a difference between respectable immigrants and lazy ones.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 11-24-13 at 07:25 AM.
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It's important to note that you learned your host nation's language, as I did mine. There's a difference between respectable immigrants and lazy ones.
    This is true. When you move to a country you should learn their language, but isn't there a bit of confusion in parts of the States where you'd need to learn two languages: English and Spanish? That's a tall order for a lot of people, and will take time. In the meantime, should those people be excluded from the workforce? Also, whilst you should learn the host language, you'll never learn it well enough for some people's taste. That's why I tend to get annoyed at apparently semi-literate types on DP attempting to criticise others' use of English when their own can hardly be a source of pride.

    The whole 'Grammar Nazi' thing shows up a cultural difference, not between nationalities, but between mindsets. I, and many friends, family and acquaintances, would not agree with the view that you only need to speak or write English well enough for someone else to understand your meaning. While that is fine for speakers of English as a second language, for native speakers I'd hold them to a higher requirement. If you believe that a language is something more than merely a means of communicating basic information, that it encompasses art and conveys character and nuance and permits the expression of imagination and the metaphysical, then the phrase, 'y'know what I mean?' should not be required.
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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This is true. When you move to a country you should learn their language, but isn't there a bit of confusion in parts of the States where you'd need to learn two languages: English and Spanish? That's a tall order for a lot of people, and will take time. In the meantime, should those people be excluded from the workforce? Also, whilst you should learn the host language, you'll never learn it well enough for some people's taste. That's why I tend to get annoyed at apparently semi-literate types on DP attempting to criticise others' use of English when their own can hardly be a source of pride.

    The whole 'Grammar Nazi' thing shows up a cultural difference, not between nationalities, but between mindsets. I, and many friends, family and acquaintances, would not agree with the view that you only need to speak or write English well enough for someone else to understand your meaning. While that is fine for speakers of English as a second language, for native speakers I'd hold them to a higher requirement. If you believe that a language is something more than merely a means of communicating basic information, that it encompasses art and conveys character and nuance and permits the expression of imagination and the metaphysical, then the phrase, 'y'know what I mean?' should not be required.
    Languages are always useful. And the better you know them, the more effective and fun they are. I only do three languages and Latin with any proficiency. So I look like a dunce compared with my wife. We would want to be able to communicate in the language of the land, but if everyone you interact with speaks English, German or French?

    On the other hand, I do not know that I would want the government to interfere in the upbringing. If Chinatown speaks Chinese? That never really seemed a problem. On the other side of the story it does not make much sense to have large parts of a population that cannot communicate with one another. If a third of the population does not speak the language of the others it could be or become difficult.
    Just thinking about the potential dangers surrounding working with heavy machinery or in the military make that quite obvious.

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

    Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

    So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
    Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

    Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

    I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
    I know a lady in San Diego who CAN'T get a job at a major retailer because she doesn't speak SPANISH.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: Learn english first

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I do believe that English is the language of our nation and it annoys me that my neighbors, who are good folks, speak Spanish to their little kids.

    Also, being bi-lingual adds value to the employee because, well, so many people come here and don't bother learning English and we have accommodated this to the point of absurdity. Now in some jobs, I suppose it doesn't matter but I would not likely hire a non-english speaking employee. But all it takes is one good amnesty and Spanish will become our primary language. I suppose this is continent appropriate but I still dread the day.

    For English press 4.
    English is not our official language constitutionally. From what I was made to understand, the founding fathers almost put it in the constitution but decided against it because there were Pennsylvania Dutch who did not speak English and wanted to be inclusive of all.

    I think the best we can do is work with the Mexican government to start Americanizing Mexico for the benefit of better trade. This should ideally include teaching their kids American civics and fluency in English by the time they graduate. An inadvertent benefit would be immigrants from Mexico would already know American civics and speak English.

    I don't think America will ever be a primarily Spanish speaking. English is the benchmark language of the world. Our immigrants want to learn English, it just takes a while. The number 1 advertisers on Spanish language TV in America are English language educational products. Previous generations of immigrants had similar challenges, some never becoming fully fluent despite trying. Its their kids who spoke English from childhood.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 11-24-13 at 11:18 AM.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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