View Poll Results: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

Voters
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  • I think ALL smoking restrictions should be lifted.

    26 20.80%
  • Yes, some bars/restaurants should be set aside to allow smoking.

    37 29.60%
  • No, keep it is it is now.

    51 40.80%
  • Other

    11 8.80%
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Thread: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

  1. #391
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Smoking ban hasn't killed bars/restaurants/bowling alleys/etc here in the US.

    What will hurt bars is if they lower the legal blood alcohol level for driving to .05 from .08... I haven't seen any studies to show that there are a lot of accidents caused by people with BAC between .05 and .08 ; until I see those, I disagree with lowering it.

    Back to topic - "private" businesses use public roads, public police forces, public airwaves for advertising, public clean water, etc. When they apply for a license, they need to follow the guidelines. I think no smoking is a reasonable guideline. Before the laws were passed, there weren't any non-smoking restaurants; I had no choice. Now I can go to restaurants and not worry about getting cancer or having my clothes reek. Some of you think that is an unreasonable restriction on a business; I don't.
    Because you think you have right to the labor of others and we don't. There were plenty of nonsmoking restaurants before the ban, fewer nonsmoking bars but the number wasn't zero. Restaurants on the whole had been trending towards nonsmoking for some times response to consumer pressure, which it's the proper avenue through which one brings about change in private business.

    BTW, your home uses public roads public police force, blah blah blah. So can the government ban you from legal activities in your own home?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #392
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Smoking ban hasn't killed bars/restaurants/bowling alleys/etc here in the US.

    What will hurt bars is if they lower the legal blood alcohol level for driving to .05 from .08... I haven't seen any studies to show that there are a lot of accidents caused by people with BAC between .05 and .08 ; until I see those, I disagree with lowering it.

    Back to topic - "private" businesses use public roads, public police forces, public airwaves for advertising, public clean water, etc. When they apply for a license, they need to follow the guidelines. I think no smoking is a reasonable guideline. Before the laws were passed, there weren't any non-smoking restaurants; I had no choice. Now I can go to restaurants and not worry about getting cancer or having my clothes reek. Some of you think that is an unreasonable restriction on a business; I don't.
    You had no choice but to hang out in restaurants and bars? Hurts to be you, eh? lulz And look. You chose to patronise such places, despite your abject terror of disease and premature death. You're a brave soul.

    My point was that so sweeping a change should have been ushered in via public assent. Not a megalomaniacal administration, operating beyond the bailiwick of its electoral custodianship.

  3. #393
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because you think you have right to the labor of others and we don't. There were plenty of nonsmoking restaurants before the ban, fewer nonsmoking bars but the number wasn't zero. Restaurants on the whole had been trending towards nonsmoking for some times response to consumer pressure, which it's the proper avenue through which one brings about change in private business.

    BTW, your home uses public roads public police force, blah blah blah. So can the government ban you from legal activities in your own home?
    I'm not running a business from home. Big difference.

    Maybe you had plenty of nonsmoking restaurants pre-ban in your area; I did not in mine.

  4. #394
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    I'm not running a business from home. Big difference.

    Maybe you had plenty of nonsmoking restaurants pre-ban in your area; I did not in mine.
    Most of your arguments were not unique to business, do they apply to you as well. And it may suck to live in a podunk town where restaurants allowed smoking, but you are still not entitled to the property and labor of others. You were never forced into the business, you always had a choice.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #395
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Back to topic - "private" businesses use public roads, public police forces, public airwaves for advertising, public clean water, etc. When they apply for a license, they need to follow the guidelines. I think no smoking is a reasonable guideline. Before the laws were passed, there weren't any non-smoking restaurants; I had no choice. Now I can go to restaurants and not worry about getting cancer or having my clothes reek. Some of you think that is an unreasonable restriction on a business; I don't.
    Not an argument at all. I use public roads, public police force, public clean water. Are you saying that because of that my private residence should be subject to a smoking ban? Talk about absurd! When anyone uses a road, then the rules of the road apply and only when on them. You don't translate use of the public road to what occurs within the wall of the private property establishment. You're beyond apples and oranges here, this is apples and asphalt!

    And I'm calling BS on your assertion about not being any non-smoking restaurants prior to the ban. If you want to clarify that with "in my area" then fine you can make that assertion. However, I can tell you that indeed there were businesses, and not just restaurants, that banned smoking on their premises prior to the ban going into effect. I use to make the conscious decision to frequent them over ones that allowed smoking.

  6. #396
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    So I don't think that preventing businesses from allowing smoking is any kind of "taking", any more than any law controlling what businesses can and can't do is. (For example, you can't have strip joints in many areas).

    Obviously some of you disagree, and I doubt we'll ever come to agreement on this.

    Moving on to private property - well, Berkeley is doing it:
    Berkeley bans tobacco smoking in apartments, condos | Berkeleyside

    Smoking cigarettes will no longer be allowed inside the units of multi-family housing developments in Berkeley, effective May 2014, after a unanimous vote by the Berkeley City Council on Tuesday night.
    Seems to me it's unenforceable in private owned dwellings; but for rental dwellings, it could be put in as part of the lease agreement. It's pretty bad to smell a neighbor's smoke, so I understand why they want this law. But like I said, not sure it's something you can enforce in a privately-owned dwelling.

  7. #397
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    So I don't think that preventing businesses from allowing smoking is any kind of "taking", any more than any law controlling what businesses can and can't do is. (For example, you can't have strip joints in many areas).

    Obviously some of you disagree, and I doubt we'll ever come to agreement on this.

    Moving on to private property - well, Berkeley is doing it:
    Berkeley bans tobacco smoking in apartments, condos | Berkeleyside



    Seems to me it's unenforceable in private owned dwellings; but for rental dwellings, it could be put in as part of the lease agreement. It's pretty bad to smell a neighbor's smoke, so I understand why they want this law. But like I said, not sure it's something you can enforce in a privately-owned dwelling.
    Another reason not to live in Berkeley. If it was part of the lease that sign that would be fine but that's not none of the city council business.

  8. #398
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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Should be up to the business owner, which in turn falls on the patron to decide whether or not to give said establishment any business. Let the cards fall where they may.

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    Re: Should cigarette smoking be allowed in some bars & restaurants?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    So I don't think that preventing businesses from allowing smoking is any kind of "taking", any more than any law controlling what businesses can and can't do is. (For example, you can't have strip joints in many areas).

    Obviously some of you disagree, and I doubt we'll ever come to agreement on this.

    Moving on to private property - well, Berkeley is doing it:
    Berkeley bans tobacco smoking in apartments, condos | Berkeleyside



    Seems to me it's unenforceable in private owned dwellings; but for rental dwellings, it could be put in as part of the lease agreement. It's pretty bad to smell a neighbor's smoke, so I understand why they want this law. But like I said, not sure it's something you can enforce in a privately-owned dwelling.
    You could pull it off if the privately owned property was multi family dwelling, such as condos. Even without HOA agreements and other similar contracts, the enforceability comes from the fact that since the units are connected, you can end up encroaching upon another's right to not be exposed to 2nd hand smoke. This differs from business idea simply because it is their property that your second hand smoke would be going on.

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