View Poll Results: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    18 45.00%
  • no

    16 40.00%
  • other/I do not know

    6 15.00%
Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 86

Thread: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

  1. #51
    Educator BlackAsCoal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    11-04-15 @ 01:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    702

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Do you want your kid being judged by civilians who don't know jack**** about military justice judging your daughter, in a scenario where she finds herself forced to disobey an unlawful order on the battlefield? Or, do you want experienced, educated line officers making that call?
    We are talking about sexual assault, correct? My answer is absolutely I would want civilian authority adjudicating any and all instances of sexual assault involving my daughter and anybody else's daughter.

    I repeat, the chain of command has failed and failed miserably.

    On a wider question of civilian authority judging my or anyone else's daughters or sons, in certain caes, I'd have no problem with that either. In fact, those scenerios of a mix of civilian and military authority over both soldiers and civilians already exists ..

    Military Versus Civilian Court Authority - Lawyers.com
    excerpt

    Military and Civilian Court Authority

    Military courts have exclusive authority over purely military crimes. Civilian courts have no authority. Some examples of purely military crimes include:

    Mutiny
    Sedition
    Failure to obey an order
    Insubordinate conduct
    Most crimes violate both civilian and military law. Examples include robbery, assault and murder. The issue becomes whether a military service member will be tried in civilian or military court.

    Civilian court authority is usually based on the location of the crime. The crime must have occurred within the boundaries of the state. Military court authority is based on the status of the offender. If he's an active service member, the UCMJ applies no matter where the crime occurs.

    If a crime violates both military and state civilian law, it may be tried by a military court, a civilian court or both. Usually the two systems will coordinate to decide where the service member should be prosecuted. A military member can't be tried for the same misconduct by both a military court and another federal court. He can be tried for the same misconduct by both a military court and a state court.

  2. #52
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    When it comes to sexual assault, I fail to see the difference of how that is determined, rather by civilian or military authority. Most importantly, start from here .. military authority/chain of command has failed to solve the problem

    "The military's sexual assault problem has reached epidemic levels. Some 26,000 service members were sexually assaulted in 2012, according to a report released this summer by the Department of Defense (DOD)—up from 19,000 in 2010. This week, the Senate will begin consideration of legislation to curb the crisis. But a battle has emerged over how to solve the problem."
    The Fight Over How to Stop Military Sexual Assault, Explained | Mother Jones

    Sexual assault is sexual assault whether in uniform or not.
    How do you keep haters off the jury? People who are biased ahainst our servicemen and can't wait to put a baby killer in jail?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #53
    Sage
    Gaius46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 01:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,441

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's a soldier's right to be judged by a jury of his peers. There's no way a civilian jury can meet that requirement.

    It's untrue that more soldiers commit suicide than die on the battlefield.

    Why can't a civilian jury meet that requirement? Juries are triers of fact (discounting nullification) so it seems to me that any reasonably intelligent person civilian would be as qualified as any reasonably intelligent soldier to do that in a case involving soldiers.

    Btw, "Jury of peers" doesn't exist in our Constitution. The 6th amendment simply says "impartial jury." "Jury of peers" goes back to the Magna Carta and at that time it meant to insure that nobles faced a jury of other nobles and not the king. These days we generally assume it to mean fellow citizens though citizenship as far as I know is not a requirement to act as a juror in some - or even many - states.

    Certainly in cases where a servicemember is accused of a crime against a civilian the appropriate state court should hear the case. Military on military crime I'm not so sure about.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  4. #54
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    We are talking about sexual assault, correct? My answer is absolutely I would want civilian authority adjudicating any and all instances of sexual assault involving my daughter and anybody else's daughter.

    I repeat, the chain of command has failed and failed miserably.

    On a wider question of civilian authority judging my or anyone else's daughters or sons, in certain caes, I'd have no problem with that either. In fact, those scenerios of a mix of civilian and military authority over both soldiers and civilians already exists ..

    Military Versus Civilian Court Authority - Lawyers.com
    excerpt

    Military and Civilian Court Authority

    Military courts have exclusive authority over purely military crimes. Civilian courts have no authority. Some examples of purely military crimes include:

    Mutiny
    Sedition
    Failure to obey an order
    Insubordinate conduct
    Most crimes violate both civilian and military law. Examples include robbery, assault and murder. The issue becomes whether a military service member will be tried in civilian or military court.

    Civilian court authority is usually based on the location of the crime. The crime must have occurred within the boundaries of the state. Military court authority is based on the status of the offender. If he's an active service member, the UCMJ applies no matter where the crime occurs.

    If a crime violates both military and state civilian law, it may be tried by a military court, a civilian court or both. Usually the two systems will coordinate to decide where the service member should be prosecuted. A military member can't be tried for the same misconduct by both a military court and another federal court. He can be tried for the same misconduct by both a military court and a state court.
    What about someone's son? Screw them?

    You can't try someone twice, for the same crime. That would be double jeopardy. Your willingness to throw a soldier's constitutional rights out thevwindow proves my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #55
    Sage
    Gaius46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 01:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,441

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you keep haters off the jury? People who are biased ahainst our servicemen and can't wait to put a baby killer in jail?
    That's what lawyers and jury selection are for. It's a general problem with any jury and doesn't seem to me to be a good reason to only try servicemembers in military courts.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  6. #56
    Educator BlackAsCoal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    11-04-15 @ 01:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    702

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you keep haters off the jury? People who are biased ahainst our servicemen and can't wait to put a baby killer in jail?
    In the same way you try to keep racists, pedophiles, other such scum off civilian juries.

  7. #57
    Educator BlackAsCoal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    11-04-15 @ 01:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    702

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What about someone's son? Screw them?

    You can't try someone twice, for the same crime. That would be double jeopardy. Your willingness to throw a soldier's constitutional rights out thevwindow proves my point.
    Someone's son should know that sexual assault is a crime and his or HER uniform does not make it legal.

    Men and women are both perpetrators and victims of sexual assault in the military.

  8. #58
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Why can't a civilian jury meet that requirement? Juries are triers of fact (discounting nullification) so it seems to me that any reasonably intelligent person civilian would be as qualified as any reasonably intelligent soldier to do that in a case involving soldiers.

    Btw, "Jury of peers" doesn't exist in our Constitution. The 6th amendment simply says "impartial jury." "Jury of peers" goes back to the Magna Carta and at that time it meant to insure that nobles faced a jury of other nobles and not the king. These days we generally assume it to mean fellow citizens though citizenship as far as I know is not a requirement to act as a juror in some - or even many - states.

    Certainly in cases where a servicemember is accused of a crime against a civilian the appropriate state court should hear the case. Military on military crime I'm not so sure about.
    Number one, enlisted soldiers can't serve on a courts martial, so regular folks don't serve on juries.

    Number three, it depends on where the crime took place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #59
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Someone's son should know that sexual assault is a crime and his or HER uniform does not make it legal.

    Men and women are both perpetrators and victims of sexual assault in the military.
    There are a lot of soldiers that find out that sexual assault is a crime, so I don't know what you're so uptight about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #60
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    In the same way you try to keep racists, pedophiles, other such scum off civilian juries.
    Right! And civilian juries have done an awesome job of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •