View Poll Results: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

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Thread: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I would think the commander would be in charge. The observer would be there to offer advice in the investigation and handling of the situation, trying to ensure consistent good practices.



    That is an interesting non sequitur. The goal is to make things more consistent and properly handled.
    In the first, if the commander is in charge then it appears someone is just getting to be a spectator and therefore a waste of money.

    In the second, I understand the goal, but we both know how things can workout in real life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    Why do you keep saying Courts-Martial. The example I cited was a PFC in my unit had his hands in his pockets. It was Friday and the held him in the Brig until Monday AM. And in the Marine Corps in 1980's it was a violation of a written order and you most certainly could stand Courts Martial for that.
    Your unit commander should have been court martialed for illegal imprisonment, along with anyone else who participated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A civilian doesn't know enough about military customs, traditions or circumstances to give a serviceman a fair trial. That's why the framers left military justice to the military.

    Most civilians don't know anything about the UCMJ. You would have to send to school to learn it, before the trial started and if you do that, then it makes more sense to let servicemembers make up the jury.
    Juries don't know anything. It isn't their job to know anything, it's their job to assess the evidence presented alone to reach a verdict. If knowledge of military customs or traditions is relevant to a case (as it could be in a civilian case now), it would be presented in evidence, just as any other specialist knowledge would be presented, say in cases of medical negligence, computer crimes or complex fraud.

    Similarly, juries don't know the civilian legal system (nobody knows any legal system - that's why they have so many reference books). Judges inform juries of the relevant laws and legal technicalities and instruct them on the specific judgements they need to make.

    I suspect the framers left military justice to the federal government because they didn't want states able to interfere with the federal military via their courts. It was a different world and an entirely different military back then though. The same principles simply don't apply any more.

  4. #34
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In the first, if the commander is in charge then it appears someone is just getting to be a spectator and therefore a waste of money.
    No. A trained expert advising and observing is not a waste of money. Unless you think the commands will reject expert help, in which case there clearly is a problem.

    In the second, I understand the goal, but we both know how things can workout in real life.
    Unintended consequences do happen, but there has to be a causal link. In this case, there is not from what I suggested to what you claimed as the result.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Without question the military chain of command should be removed from these cases .. immediately.

    They have consistently demonstrated themselves to be nothing more than the old boy's club rather than an honest and fair form of judgement and review.

    More American soldiers kill themselves than die in combat, and its time this government took the lives of soldiers more seriously than they do.
    The thread is about sexual assault, not suicide.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Are you kidding me? Were you really in the service? Of couse Marines could be NJP and Courts-Martialed for not following orders.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Your unit commander should have been court martialed for illegal imprisonment, along with anyone else who participated.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

  7. #37
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    Are you kidding me? Were you really in the service? Of couse Marines could be NJP and Courts-Martialed for not following orders.
    Sure they can. However, not for putting their hands in tjeir pockets. Sounds like you had a soup sammich for a commander.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #38
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's a soldier's right to be judged by a jury of his peers. There's no way a civilian jury can meet that requirement.
    The American people are their peers.

    It's untrue that more soldiers commit suicide than die on the battlefield.
    You sure about that?

    More U.S. soldiers on active duty committed suicide than died in combat last year, shocking new figures reveal | Mail Online

    Military Suicide Epidemic: More U.S. Soldiers Have Killed Themselves Than Died on Battlefield in 2012 | Democracy Now!

  9. #39
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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No. A trained expert advising and observing is not a waste of money. Unless you think the commands will reject expert help, in which case there clearly is a problem.



    Unintended consequences do happen, but there has to be a causal link. In this case, there is not from what I suggested to what you claimed as the result.
    First, rejection of the advice is what I'm referring to.

    Second, we're talking soldier's life. Ot's very important to consider all possibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Should we remove military chain of command from military sexual assault cases?

    We absolutely should.


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