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Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44:185]

Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not based on what we know?

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Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Chiefgator said:
Agreed...

I have to say, the planets must be aligned in some radical way when TD and Haymarket agree on a gun issue.... :mrgreen: :peace
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I think most every person believes that guns should not be used irresponsibly. where the debate is over is that many left-wingers do not believe that people should be able to use guns RESPONSIBLY.

this incident is a clear case of irresponsible gun use. Hence, there should be little disagreement
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Excon said:
It is either plea or defend.
And everyone knows there is a difference between banging and knocking, as they are defined differently, there is a legal difference, as they are two separate things.
The banging goes directly to his thoughts that someone was trying to break-in.
It is a reasonable thought from hearing such.
So maybe he will get lucky in defending this.

And the Prosecutor made no statement that the evidence was knocking. None. I provided what she said. It is nothing more than an allegation made by others that she used in a press conference. Without an eyewitness, the only possible thing the prosecutor could state is there is evidence that she touched the door, not how she touched it, because she was not there and has no one else who was.
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factually not true, you provide an earlier video i provide her quoted statments that she did indeed make and they are contained in the articles already here, you are factually wrong and her is the qoute i already pointed out that did not come from the initial video statement.

heres the quote from articles after the video "evidence showed McBride, of Detroit, knocked on the locked screen door of Wafer’s home and that there was no evidence of forced entry."
this is a later quote from here, facts prove your statement wrong

if you disagree simply provide any facts that she is lying

also legally there is no difference between knocking on a door or banging on a door

also save the deflection and backpedal, nobody is saying he wasnt allowed to bring his gun to the door, he was
nobody is saying he wasnt allowed to think somebody could be breaking in or had no reason too, he could have
what is being said and what is factually true that without other evidence the banging vs knocking alone is 100% meaningless.

if you disagree pleases provide any fact that say they are different, factually proof your statement that they are legally different.
facts prove this statement wrong also
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

TurtleDude said:
this incident is a clear case of irresponsible gun use.
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Wtf?
A person arming their self to investigate what they believe is someone breaking into their home, is not irresponsible usage.
An accidental discharge does not indicate that either.
So without further evidence either way, why do you say such?
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

TurtleDude said:
I think most every person believes that guns should not be used irresponsibly. where the debate is over is that many left-wingers do not believe that people should be able to use guns RESPONSIBLY.

this incident is a clear case of irresponsible gun use. Hence, there should be little disagreement
Click to expand...

Agreed. This individual acted improperly and should pay the price of his actions. And I feel that the overwhelming vast majority of gun owners do indeed use them responsibly.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

I don't see the Castle Doctrine applying here. The law is clear, in order to invoke the doctrine the perp must be INSIDE the home. The girl was shot through a locked screen door. I don't see how her tox screen enters this as it would have to be high enough to be a factor and she would have had to have done something threatening- remember the locked door she was shot through was a screen door- if she had thrown something through it, or ripped it, maybe but apparently only shot gun pellets passed through the screen.

The shooter is younger than me, was holding deadly force and was confronting a girl, not a mob of young men. I don't see how he can claim fear.

The shooter uttered a spontaneous statement to the cops he accidentally shot the girl... not fear of life and limb but a puck-up.

While a few of the usual suspects in here have tried to claim a white man in Detroit has much to fear from black girls in the wee hours, I doubt the defense will try and play the race card. (Mainly because if he did fear the black girl because he is an old white guy in Detroit why in THE hail did he open the main door?????) I wonder if the shooter had a blood test?

There was no struggle, no use of force by the girl, the screen door would have been torn down. The shooter never claimed, at the time, she attacked him. The 'Zimmerman' defense is out.

It was a bad shoot, the homeowner will more than likely plead out, but he should get jailtime.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Excon said:
Wtf?
A person arming their self to investigate what they believe is someone breaking into their home, is not irresponsible usage.
An accidental discharge does not indicate that either.
So without further evidence either way, why do you say such?
Click to expand...

I call em like I see em. I don't believe you should shoot until either

1) a person has broken into your dwelling

2) or you have clearly identified them as engaging in life threatening activity-

example, you see someone about to hurl a molotov cocktail at your home-go ahead and cut them in half. you see someone pointing a M16 at your door and they are cranking back the bolt-yeah, that's grounds to open up with everything that kills
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Someone keeps providing untrue information and calls it a fact as if were true, when it is not.

I Provided the Prosecutors exact words and linked to them.
All the other person did was quote what another has said about her words, which they had incorrect.

Here is is again, linked and all.

The Prosecutor said in her press conference that "It's alleged she was shot to death by the home owner after she knocked on his locked front screen door." The only folks who had alleged such has been the family.

Even the above article where the video is located reported it accurately.

Worthy said during a news conference there was no evidence of forced entry on Wafer’s home. She said it is alleged that McBride was shot after knocking on the locked front screen door.​
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

TurtleDude said:
I call em like I see em. I don't believe you should shoot until either

1) a person has broken into your dwelling

2) or you have clearly identified them as engaging in life threatening activity-

example, you see someone about to hurl a molotov cocktail at your home-go ahead and cut them in half. you see someone pointing a M16 at your door and they are cranking back the bolt-yeah, that's grounds to open up with everything that kills
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:confused:
Here is what confuses me in regards to your statements.
You are not speaking to this case which is reported as an accidental discharge. Not a purposeful shooting.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Excon said:
Someone keeps providing untrue information and calls it a fact as if were true, when it is not.

I Provided the Prosecutors exact words and linked to them.
All the other person did was quote what another has said about her words, which they had incorrect.

Here is is again, linked and all.

The Prosecutor said in her press conference that "It's alleged she was shot to death by the home owner after she knocked on his locked front screen door." The only folks who had alleged such has been the family.

Even the above article where the video is located reported it accurately.

Worthy said during a news conference there was no evidence of forced entry on Wafer’s home. She said it is alleged that McBride was shot after knocking on the locked front screen door.​
Click to expand...

prosecutors always say that because a suspect is presumed innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY BEYOND a reasonable doubt. Since the rest of us are NOT part of the prosecution team (it would be a violation of professional ethics and most likely office policy for a member of the prosecution team to post here on this thread) we don't have to couch our comments in such CYA legalese
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Excon said:
Someone keeps providing untrue information and calls it a fact as if were true, when it is not.

I Provided the Prosecutors exact words and linked to them.
All the other person did was quote what another has said about her words, which they had incorrect.

Here is is again, linked and all.

The Prosecutor said in her press conference that "It's alleged she was shot to death by the home owner after she knocked on his locked front screen door." The only folks who had alleged such has been the family.

Even the above article where the video is located reported it accurately.

Worthy said during a news conference there was no evidence of forced entry on Wafer’s home. She said it is alleged that McBride was shot after knocking on the locked front screen door.​
Click to expand...

Of course she said "alleged".... That pesky Constitution thing again...

BUT, neither knocking nor banging is really going to come into play here IMHO.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

TurtleDude said:
prosecutors always say that because a suspect is presumed innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY BEYOND a reasonable doubt. Since the rest of us are NOT part of the prosecution team (it would be a violation of professional ethics and most likely office policy for a member of the prosecution team to post here on this thread) we don't have to couch our comments in such CYA legalese
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:naughty
She was not speaking to the evidence and what she was alleging.
She was stating what was alleged by another.
She could only know that the door was touched by collected evidence. Not how it was touched, as in banging vs simply knocking.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Excon said:
Someone keeps providing untrue information and calls it a fact as if were true, when it is not.

I Provided the Prosecutors exact words and linked to them.
All the other person did was quote what another has said about her words, which they had incorrect.

Here is is again, linked and all.

The Prosecutor said in her press conference that "It's alleged she was shot to death by the home owner after she knocked on his locked front screen door." The only folks who had alleged such has been the family.

Even the above article where the video is located reported it accurately.

Worthy said during a news conference there was no evidence of forced entry on Wafer’s home. She said it is alleged that McBride was shot after knocking on the locked front screen door.​
Click to expand...

100% false the quote is HERS after the EARLIER video statement and until evidence can prove otherwise your claim 100% wrong

here it is again

Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy "evidence showed McBride, of Detroit, knocked on the locked screen door of Wafer’s home and that there was no evidence of forced entry."

if you have anything, any facts at all that shows the country prosecutor is lying please post them.
 
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Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Excon said:
:confused:
Here is what confuses me in regards to your statements.
You are not speaking to this case which is reported as an accidental discharge. Not a purposeful shooting.
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Would you say that Negligent discharge of a weapon is irresponsible use or responsible use?
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Chiefgator said:
Would you say that Negligent discharge of a weapon is irresponsible use or responsible use?
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You are phrasing it as negligent when it may not be.
So under what is presently known, I would say it could be an accident while using properly.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Excon said:
:naughty
1.)She was not speaking to the evidence and what she was alleging.
2.)She was stating what was alleged by another.
3.) She could only know that the door was touched by collected evidence. Not how it was touched, as in banging vs simply knocking.
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1.) proof, link, facts? this statement is a guess
2.) see #1
3.) see #1
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

AGENT J said:
LOL

well i had no clue what you were asking thats what i said

I still dont know exactly what you are asking

trial bit?

what specifically are you asking
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Well, basically, I was asking:
The Mark said:
I'm not sure how this works though - can his defense just put him on the stand and have him say "I heard banging, and went to the door with my shotgun, which accidentally discharged"?
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By which I meant: Do I understand correctly, that the defense can put him on the stand and have him present his story?

I then expanded on this question, by wondering:
The Mark said:
And then the prosecution has to poke holes in his claim? I think that's how it works...so whether his claim is reasonable or not, it has to be proved wrong in order to convict him of something?
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By which I meant: And then the prosecution must prove his story false to the satisfaction of a jury in order to convict him of something beyond what that story would support?


It was, perhaps, a bit disjointed, originally.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

AGENT J said:
100% false the quote is HERS after the EARLIER video statement and until evidnec can prove otherwise your claim 100% wrong

here it is again

Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy "evidence showed McBride, of Detroit, knocked on the locked screen door of Wafer’s home and that there was no evidence of forced entry."

if you have anything, any facts at all that shows the country prosecutor is lying please post them.
Click to expand...
I have repeatedly linked her statement.
Why don't you?

It is really quite sad that you keep providing a quote of the reporters words and not hers.
 
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Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

AGENT J said:
1.) proof, link, facts? this statement is a guess
2.) see #1
3.) see #1
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Already linked.
You quoted it. Do you not know how to click on the link in it?
 
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Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Knocking Vs Banging

i know there are some lawyers out there, cops etc

is there anybody that has any links and facts that suggest that knocking and banging are legally different?

this is not about:
saying he wasnt allowed to bring his gun to the door to investigate, he was, his gun, his door
saying he wasnt allowed to think somebody could be breaking in or had no reason too, he could have


what is being discussed/asked is, that without other evidence the banging vs knocking alone is meaningless legally.

by themselves there is no legal difference im aware of, does anybody know of something different?

now if there was evidence of foot prints on the door, dents from an object or evidence of attempted forced entry then we have something but alone with nothing else the LAW doesnt see them as different that im aware of.


Goshin? (ex cop)
Turtle? (lawyer i think)

i mean heck in general thats how people say cops come do the door, "banging on the door like your the police"

legally, alone are they different?
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Excon said:
1.)Already linked.
2.)You quoted it. Do you not know how to click on the link in it?
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1.) correct an earliery video before here wouted statments this is why your claim has been proven false
2.) see #1

i will ask again please provide FACTS that the County Prosecutor was

A.) not speaking to the evidence and what she was alleging.
B.) She was stating what was alleged by another.
C.) She could only know that the door was touched by collected evidence. Not how it was touched, as in banging vs simply knocking.

all 3 things are guesses and not back up by any facts at all.

heres her quotes again:

"evidence showed McBride, of Detroit, knocked on the locked screen door of Wafer’s home and that there was no evidence of forced entry."

“we have examined everything and after examining everything these are the appropriate charges and he did not act in lawful self-defense,”


“No matter what kind of pressure you receive to not charge a case or to charge it, you don’t go by that,”

“If the facts and evidence are leading you, then you can’t go wrong. If you are afraid to make those decisions, then you need not have this job. If you are afraid you will lose friends or lose influence or lose whatever — lose traction — then you don’t need to have this job, because you’ll make decisions based on the wrong things.”

"We make our decisions based on the facts and the evidence"
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

Excon said:
1.)I have repeatedly linked her statement.
2.)Why don't you?
3.) It is really quite sad that you keep providing a quote of the reporters words and not hers.
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1.) yes her earlier video statement which has not impact on her later quoted statement
2.) i have its in the articles in the op or elsewhere that i have already linked
3.) nope they are her words not a reporters hence the quote

here it is again, her words, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy "evidence showed McBride, of Detroit, knocked on the locked screen door of Wafer’s home and that there was no evidence of forced entry."

Do you have any facts that show the prosecutor is lying?
 
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Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Excon said:
You are phrasing it as negligent when it may not be.
So under what is presently known, I would say it could be an accident while using properly.
Click to expand...



Any person that has had any gun training at all will tell you that Negligent Discharge is the correct term.
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

The Mark said:
Well, basically, I was asking:

1.)By which I meant: Do I understand correctly, that the defense can put him on the stand and have him present his story?

I then expanded on this question, by wondering:

2.) By which I meant: And then the prosecution must prove his story false to the satisfaction of a jury in order to convict him of something beyond what that story would support?


3.)It was, perhaps, a bit disjointed, originally.
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1.) yes if it makes it to trial im guess this is exactly what will happen.
he will get to tell his story and they will be crossed referenced with his current two already made statments

2.) yes and know, it depends on what the charge/conviction is.

for murder 2 which i think is CURRENTLY impossible to get yes
for say involuntary man slaughter or negligent homicide, not sure how it works in Michigan then not so much.

his story could be exactly what gets him charged with one of those it will only need pointed out where he was negligent

3.) no biggie
 
Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not? [W:44]

AGENT J said:
2.) i have its in the articles in the op
3.) nope they are her words not a reporters hence the quote
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False.
You are quoting the reporters interpretation of her words in the press conference, not her actual words like I did.

If you think differently
Link to it specifically.

The only article you provided saying any such thing was the first link.
A report on the Press Conference. You know, the one from which I quoted her exact words. Duh!

That first link you provided is the following, and no, what you say it is not in any of the other ones.
Michigan homeowner charged in porch shooting death of 19-year-old woman | Fox News

The following is from the above article which you falsely attribute to being a quote of the prosecutor instead of the reporter.
She said evidence showed McBride knocked on the locked screen door, and that there was no evidence of forced entry.​
Those are the reporters words.
Nowhere in that statement (the one you provided) is there a direct quote of the Prosecutor. Nowhere!
Again; Those are the reporters words.

What the prosecutor said, is exactly as I previously provided, not what what you erroneously attributed to her.

It is really sad that we have to go through all of this just because you can't admit you are wrong.



So everybody can see who quoted the Prosecutor accurately and who didn't.
I have put it the quote box so it stands out this time.

AGENT J said:
Excon said:
Someone keeps providing untrue information and calls it a fact as if were true, when it is not.

I Provided the Prosecutors exact words and linked to them.
All the other person did was quote what another has said about her words, which they had incorrect.

Here is is again, linked and all. Please take note that these are reports on the same press conference.

The Prosecutor said in her press conference that (← linked)
"It's alleged she was shot to death by the home owner after she knocked on his locked front screen door."
Click to expand...
The only folks who had alleged such has been the family.

Even the above article where the video is located reported it accurately.

Worthy said during a news conference there was no evidence of forced entry on Wafer’s home. She said it is alleged that McBride was shot after knocking on the locked front screen door.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

100% false the quote is HERS after the EARLIER video statement and until evidnec can prove otherwise your claim 100% wrong

here it is again

Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy "evidence showed McBride, of Detroit, knocked on the locked screen door of Wafer’s home and that there was no evidence of forced entry."

if you have anything, any facts at all that shows the country prosecutor is lying please post them.
Click to expand...
 
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Re: Theodore Wafer, shooter of Renisha McBride, conviction or not?

Chiefgator said:
Any person that has had any gun training at all will tell you that Negligent Discharge is the correct term.
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iLOL No they will not. Not all accidents are caused by negligence.
 
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