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Minimum drop out age

Sould the drop out grade be lowered

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 28.6%

  • Keep it the same

    Votes: 7 20.0%

  • the grade shouldent exist and they should stay in school till 12th grade

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • Total voters
    35
Helix said:
then it appears that the curriculum is what needs to be addressed.
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Exactly what I said.
I actually have written a bit about this subject in a book I am working on, as well as in several essays for college assignments.
 
Helix said:
then it appears that the curriculum is what needs to be addressed. i have some ideas. however, there is still no good reason to not require kids to achieve some minimal level of education.
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I addressed some of the changes to curriculum in an earlier post.

I also agree with your statement that they SHOULD complete the 12th grade. However, there is only so much you can do. Sometimes you have to be realistic and admit that there are some that just do not WANT to do that backflip...
 
Chiefgator said:
I addressed some of the changes to curriculum in an earlier post.

I also agree with your statement that they SHOULD complete the 12th grade. However, there is only so much you can do. Sometimes you have to be realistic and admit that there are some that just do not WANT to do that backflip...
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VERY SIMPLE, completely trash the "public schools" and allow parents to make the decisions & either arrange for education or educate the brats at home, but if YOU can not care for your own of-spring, you should NOT have any!
 
Menard_K said:
VERY SIMPLE, completely trash the "public schools" and allow parents to make the decisions & either arrange for education or educate the brats at home, but if YOU can not care for your own of-spring, you should NOT have any!
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I am sorry but I cannot support that. I am quite Libertarian in many of my social views, but to allow the closing of public school is not anything I could support.

I have seen, first hand, people that had nothing.... zero... and they were able to overcome that by, first, getting an education in public schools. Education is something that greatly benefits the entire community. I have no beef whatsoever that my tax dollars go towards education, even though I have no school age children.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Home schooling? WTH does that have to do with keeping kids in public schools longer?
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because kids don't drop out any more--they are released to "home schooling" to cook the No Child Left Behind numbers.
 
Fisher said:
No I just make things up when I want to. I guess you busted me.....oh shoot, wait....

Home truths: Are Texas high schools hiding their dropout rates behind home-schooling - Houston Chronicle
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Those are 2008 numbers. What about now?

States Hide Big High School Dropout Rates - They send 1 set of numbers to DC, keep another set at home
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When this story ran ironically the same year this story ran as well: Home school numbers on the decline - Kingman Daily Miner - Kingman, Arizona That was in 2008 you really had to go back in time find something didnt you?

And those numbers do not take in account why a student stopped going to a public school and is being home schooled. You seem to be assuming that every home schooled student is there because they dropped out of school. But a drop out isnt a student that moves to a different mode of education they are actually dropping out of schooling entirely. So your claim then is false.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Those are 2008 numbers. What about now?

When this story ran ironically the same year this story ran as well: Home school numbers on the decline - Kingman Daily Miner - Kingman, Arizona That was in 2008 you really had to go back in time find something didnt you?

And those numbers do not take in account why a student stopped going to a public school and is being home schooled. You seem to be assuming that every home schooled student is there because they dropped out of school. But a drop out isnt a student that moves to a different mode of education they are actually dropping out of schooling entirely. So your claim then is false.
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No, you asked for evidence I provided it. Bellyache all you want but the entire national education model is based on the TEXAS model that used fake numbers to impose itself on the nation. My claim is not "therefore false" because you want it to be. If you are going to erect a proper strawman, you should at least develop some skill at it. There are two relatives in two different districts in my extended family who used "released to home schooling" as a way to drop out when they could not officially drop out. You provide proof you have purchased some home schooling/GED plan and you never hear from the school systems again and never have to complete the program. Sorry, you lose.
 
Helix said:
i don't doubt that you are correct. i'm arguing that not letting kids drop out before a minimal level of education would have positive societal benefits.
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Of course... but what is that minimum level? I think basic math skills prior to algebra with some basic geometry... essay and writing skills, reading comprehension, basic geography, balancing a check book (bank account)... basically nothing past a 9th or 10th grade education. For those that are doing poorly, are priority learners or not interested there should be a skills pathway. We are doing a dis-service to so many that will not be going a professional route. Wasting time, money, etc. The system needs a revamp.
 
Fisher said:
No, you asked for evidence I provided it. Bellyache all you want but the entire national education model is based on the TEXAS model that used fake numbers to impose itself on the nation. My claim is not "therefore false" because you want it to be. If you are going to erect a proper strawman, you should at least develop some skill at it. There are two relatives in two different districts in my extended family who used "released to home schooling" as a way to drop out when they could not officially drop out. You provide proof you have purchased some home schooling/GED plan and you never hear from the school systems again and never have to complete the program. Sorry, you lose.
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This is the first that I have heard of this tactic. But it certainly makes sense. I would be interested to see some more current data. Thank you.

Looing back at it, we had to home school our son for a year because of an illness. I was shocked at how easy it way to get him disenrolled and enrolled into a home school set up. My wife and I are educated, but I think it is a farce to say that an uneducated parent can give the same education as a public school. You also don't get the social interaction skills that being in a public setting brings.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Of course... but what is that minimum level? I think basic math skills prior to algebra with some basic geometry... essay and writing skills, reading comprehension, basic geography, balancing a check book (bank account)... basically nothing past a 9th or 10th grade education. For those that are doing poorly, are priority learners or not interested there should be a skills pathway. We are doing a dis-service to so many that will not be going a professional route. Wasting time, money, etc. The system needs a revamp.
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my local high school has vocational programs for the kids who aren't going to college. That's probably the best way to do it. However, graduation should still be required.
 
Helix said:
it's my opinion that dropping out should not be allowed at all, because there is a significant societal cost. a high school education should be the bare minimum; problem students can be channeled into at-risk programs.
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We already have "continuation" high schools that serve that purpose, and their success is dubious at best. How would you enforce the actual getting of an education/diploma for kids who seriously have no interest?
 
Perhaps we need to reevaluate what our schools do.
I know in education circles, vocational education is a bad word,
but maybe it is time to add a craft/skill track as a possible option for students.
By the end of 10th grade, they likely know if College is in their near future.
Knowing Plumbing, HVAC, or even how to cut hair,
could vastly enhance their lives, over minimum wage jobs.
We each need different things, at different points in life,
Sometimes we would like someone to discuss Lock's natural laws,
other times, we need a plumber who knows how to stop that pipe from leaking.
 
I tend to favor something in the other direction. IMO, the single biggest hurdle to kids getting a good public education is the lack of ability to get rid of trouble making students. n These trouble makers suck up more resources and time then everybody else combined... resources and time that should be spent on students who WANT to be there and who WANT to learn.

People prattle on about the student's right to an education. Ok, let's run with that. The trouble making a-hole has no right to deprive my good student to their chance at a good education.

I say kick them the eff out of school and better spend the resources and time on the majority who want to be there. The "bang for the buck" increase will be phenomenal.

Those "left behind" will be relatively few, and most of them aren't really salvageable anyway.
 
Helix said:
my local high school has vocational programs for the kids who aren't going to college. That's probably the best way to do it. However, graduation should still be required.
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Absolutely agree...
 
radcen said:
We already have "continuation" high schools that serve that purpose, and their success is dubious at best. How would you enforce the actual getting of an education/diploma for kids who seriously have no interest?
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same thing that would be done for an eigth grader; send the truant officer to get them. when they graduate, they can stop going to school. graduating high school isn't too much to ask of a citizen.
 
Helix said:
same thing that would be done for an eigth grader; send the truant officer to get them. when they graduate, they can stop going to school. graduating high school isn't too much to ask of a citizen.
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I agree that it's not asking much. Let's get real... high school isn't very hard. It's mostly doing minimal assignments and putting in "seat time". Whenever I think of drop-outs, or even people with GEDs, I think, "You can't do high school? That's bare minimal crap. What can you do?"

Would you be in favor of allowing people to "test out" of high school? I don't mean a GED, I mean giving them an actual diploma if they can demonstrate the minimum knowledge early?

I would. I'd be fine with that.

I understand, and agree with, your desire. There's just something about virtually holding somebody prisoner and forcing them to do something against their will (over the age of 16, arbitrary age, picked by me) that's crossing a line for me. I'd rather spend the time and resources on those who want to be there so they can excel even more.
 
Helix said:
same thing that would be done for an eigth grader; send the truant officer to get them. when they graduate, they can stop going to school. graduating high school isn't too much to ask of a citizen.
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And if he refuses? several times... continuously... then what? Arrest? Fine the Parents?
At what point does it become too much of a burden on the local PD? They cannot be protecting the people when they are busy with truancy.
 
radcen said:
I agree that it's not asking much. Let's get real... high schoolloss.'t very hard. It's mostly doing minimal assignments and putting in "seat time". Whenever I think of drop-outs, or even people with GEDs, I think, "You can't do high school? That's bare minimal crap. What can you do?"

Would you be in favor of allowing people to "test out" of high school? I don't mean a GED, I mean giving them an actual diploma if they can demonstrate the minimum knowledge early?

I would. I'd be fine with that.

I understand, and agree with, your desire. There's just something about virtually holding somebody prisoner and forcing them to do something against their will (over the age of 16, arbitrary age, picked by me) that's crossing a line for me. I'd rather spend the time and resources on those who want to be there so they can excel even more.
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I'd say maybe. It would at least be an improvement over the current system, and it's a decent compromise.

Here's the thing, though : it's not just about knowing the material. The act of constant learning is weightlifting for the mind. Even learning things that seem useless can be used for completely unrelated applications. And when you factor in that the brain is developing up through the late 20s, this is the critical time for intellectual rigor. I'd like to keep kids in school as long as possible for this reason, and if you give them the option to split at 16, a lot of them are going to take it. Sure, I know, tough for them, but we end up footing the bill, and it's not just a monetary loss
 
Chiefgator said:
And if he refuses? several times... continuously... then what? Arrest? Fine the Parents?
At what point does it become too much of a burden on the local PD? They cannot be protecting the people when they are busy with truancy.
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Fining the parents sounds like a good idea. That would get them involved.
 
Chiefgator said:
And if he refuses? several times... continuously... then what? Arrest? Fine the Parents?
At what point does it become too much of a burden on the local PD? They cannot be protecting the people when they are busy with truancy.
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They go to school-jail, which is a school that doesn't let you out.


:mrgreen:

But really, that seems the only other option, besides letting them get away without graduating.
 
Helix said:
I'd say maybe. It would at least be an improvement over the current system, and it's a decent compromise.

Here's the thing, though : it's not just about knowing the material. The act of constant learning is weightlifting for the mind. Even learning things that seem useless can be used for completely unrelated applications. And when you factor in that the brain is developing up through the late 20s, this is the critical time for intellectual rigor. I'd like to keep kids in school as long as possible for this reason, and if you give them the option to split at 16, a lot of them are going to take it. Sure, I know, tough for them, but we end up footing the bill, and it's not just a monetary loss
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You make good points, and I'm right there with you on the constant exercising of the mind thing. There's just a point where a small minority ends up sucking a disproportionate percentage of the resources and I think more people would benefit overall if we just cut them loose.
 
radcen said:
You make good points, and I'm right there with you on the constant exercising of the mind thing. There's just a point where a small minority ends up sucking a disproportionate percentage of the resources and I think more people would benefit overall if we just cut them loose.
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Yours is a legitimate argument, and I might be a biased intellectual idealist. However, I mean seriously, just graduate high school. ****, some countries force everyone to be in the army.

I think we need to SERIOUSLY redesign the structure of secondary school, though. Nothing wrong with separate academic and vocational routes, as long as the kid gets to make the decision.
 
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