Minimum drop out age

Muhammed said:

Bull****, You are being extremely presumptuous by insinuating that all students can be aducated by SADFIs.

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i suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Helix said:

i suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

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So are you trying to insinuate that all people can benefit from being schooled by people who aren't very smart?

JJB3333 said:

Ok so i would just like to ask something tha has been bugging me. Sould the drop our grade be lowered.I mean of course i accept that all kids should have an education, but why are we wasting money on so many kids who dont want to be there. We should have it so that say from 9th grade, if the kids want to drop out and riun their lifes, it is their choice. if the parents dont want them to, they can force them to stay in school, but you have all of these kids who are failing classes, ditching, sometimes even going to drugs, and we waste money putting them through year after years of school.

So question: should the drop out grade be lowered from 11th grade

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No, they should be in school or doing some kind of community/military service. They should NOT be "hanging out," playing basketball, or loitering, or walking around, or getting their girlfriends pregnant and going on welfare.

That said, the president of the multinational company i work for didn't finish high school, and he makes millions of dollars a year now. So that can happen too.

chromium said:

Actually in my experience the schools are nothing but havens for future criminals. They do *nothing* about severe bullying. You can't change someone like that. You can only get rid of them for the sake of everyone else. Saturday school, points, detention, none of that garbage works and in the meantime their victims, often very bright and well-behaved kids, suffer.

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I agree we do not seem to do schools very well for underprivileged persons in difficult areas. Summerhill does not work well under those parameters. So you remove your own kids from the school. What remains are kids that will probably become problematic adults. We are losing a lot of potential there and it seems to be getting worse.

Muhammed said:

So are you trying to insinuate that all people can benefit from being schooled by people who aren't very smart?

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i disagree with your broad assessment of instructors.

joG said:

I agree we do not seem to do schools very well for underprivileged persons in difficult areas. Summerhill does not work well under those parameters. So you remove your own kids from the school. What remains are kids that will probably become problematic adults. We are losing a lot of potential there and it seems to be getting worse.

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Or your precious little babies need to learn how to deal with confrontation, just like they'll need to be able to do as adults.

Muhammed said:

So are you trying to insinuate that all people can benefit from being schooled by people who aren't very smart?

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Yes. Your teacher does not need to be smarter than you for you to learn something.

Peter Grimm said:

Or your precious little babies need to learn how to deal with confrontation, just like they'll need to be able to do as adults.

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That, of course, is true. It is always helpful to be able to deal with the guy with the gun, when need be.

joG said:

That, of course, is true. It is always helpful to be able to deal with the guy with the gun, when need be.

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If someone brings a gun to school, they'll be expelled.

Peter Grimm said:

If someone brings a gun to school, they'll be expelled.

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Oh yes! We scan for weapons, don't we.

Peter Grimm said:

No, they should be in school or doing some kind of community/military service. They should NOT be "hanging out," playing basketball, or loitering, or walking around, or getting their girlfriends pregnant and going on welfare.

That said, the president of the multinational company i work for didn't finish high school, and he makes millions of dollars a year now. So that can happen too.

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you know thats a good point. maybe as a contingency to keep them in school we could say that say if you dropped out before the current drop out grade (i think its 11th grade) you would have to serve a year in the military.

Several people have expressed disgust with how well our current public school system trains kids.

I agree.

But how do we improve and/or replace it? No one ever seems able to answer that to my satisfaction.

JJB3333 said:

Ok so i would just like to ask something tha has been bugging me. Sould the drop our grade be lowered.I mean of course i accept that all kids should have an education, but why are we wasting money on so many kids who dont want to be there. We should have it so that say from 9th grade, if the kids want to drop out and riun their lifes, it is their choice. if the parents dont want them to, they can force them to stay in school, but you have all of these kids who are failing classes, ditching, sometimes even going to drugs, and we waste money putting them through year after years of school.

So question: should the drop out grade be lowered from 11th grade

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I didn't know there was a minimum grade for dropping out. How would anyone force someone to go to school? His parents probably don't care.

These are minors with problems. I don't think they should be given up on and discarded for so-called better students, although I agree they take up valuable time and attention from teachers & schools. Still, I think all efforts should be made to keep the kid in school as long as possible. He just might straighten out and end up graduating, even if it is with horrible grades. Otherwise, he is committed to a life of unemployment or lowly employment, possible homelessness, and misery. A person can't be a very productive citizen without a high school degree. He will also be a drain on society, getting food stamps, welfare (in the few states that give it), etc.

If he makes it to the 11th grade, it is easier to get his GED later, since by osmosis he at least got some of the information he was forced to sit and listen to in classes. But if he dropped out in the 9th grade, it would be much harder for him to get his GED later.

Someone aged 15 is too young to be labeled a loser, unless he enters a life of violent crime. People are very different at age 15 than they are at 30. There's a chance he could make it out of high school. If his parents cared about his future, he wouldn't be having serious problems, IMO.

As for drugs, lots of teens do drugs and graduate high school. It's violence that matters, IMO. And in that case, he'll end up in a reform school, anyway. Problem solved.

DaveFagan said:

In fact, the current educational system only hits 35-40% of the students. The rest respond to alternative educational methods. Correctly motivated, they will do just fine. The Nation wants a "one size fits all" method and it can't be done. Vocational high schools and trade schools hit another percentage. The students realize that they must acquire reading and math skills to do what they enjoy. Or be able to read the instructions on "How To Dye or Curl Hair." The status quo fights the alternatives because they feel it might cost them jobs. Even an occasional "loser" slips through the cracks and learns something. The answers can't be simplified.

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Vocational and trade schools aren't the answer alone, since most places require a high school diploma for its employees. So even if he becomes a licensed plumber or carpenter, he'll have trouble getting a job with a company. EVERYONE benefits from readin', writin', and 'rithmetic. Every effort needs to be made to teach kids these things. It's necessary. He'll have to balance a checkbook, understand a rental agreement, learn to think, possibly handle money at his job, know what the interest rate on his later savings account means, etc. Trade schools are not a substitute for the basics. They are maybe a substitute for a college education, IF someone is inclined to do a trade as employment.

JumpinJack said:

Vocational and trade schools aren't the answer alone, since most places require a high school diploma for its employees. So even if he becomes a licensed plumber or carpenter, he'll have trouble getting a job with a company. EVERYONE benefits from readin', writin', and 'rithmetic. Every effort needs to be made to teach kids these things. It's necessary. He'll have to balance a checkbook, understand a rental agreement, learn to think, possibly handle money at his job, know what the interest rate on his later savings account means, etc. Trade schools are not a substitute for the basics. They are maybe a substitute for a college education, IF someone is inclined to do a trade as employment.

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The point is that the standard educational SYSTEM in the USA only hits 35-40% of students. That's the books and teacher style in a standard classroom. In a machine shop environment, the student has to develop his reading skills for instructrion sets, then his algebra skills for digital programming, and keep accurate written records of his work. That's readin', writin', and rithmetic' from a non-standard, alternative educational system and perhaps it only hits 20%, but it's the part of the 60-65% that the standard system misses. You get the same results with a different motivator. Many of these students build their own businesses with hands on skill and motivation. Just an alternative, and it does not produce dummies.

JJB3333 said:

you know thats a good point. maybe as a contingency to keep them in school we could say that say if you dropped out before the current drop out grade (i think its 11th grade) you would have to serve a year in the military.

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I agree with this. Academics are not for everyone, but leaving it behind begs the question as to what replaces school. Something structured is needed. I don't care if delinquent kids aren't taking calculus. I do care that they're not roaming the neighborhood for houses and garages to break into while my wife and I are at work and my son is at school. Some sort of structured positive involvement would need to take school's place.

JJB3333 said:

Ok so i would just like to ask something tha has been bugging me. Sould the drop our grade be lowered.I mean of course i accept that all kids should have an education, but why are we wasting money on so many kids who dont want to be there. We should have it so that say from 9th grade, if the kids want to drop out and riun their lifes, it is their choice. if the parents dont want them to, they can force them to stay in school, but you have all of these kids who are failing classes, ditching, sometimes even going to drugs, and we waste money putting them through year after years of school.

So question: should the drop out grade be lowered from 11th grade

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Sure but with conditions. Not sure what those are, but perhaps things like a part-time job or perhaps lower the age they can go to a low-tech school for electrician, that sort of thing. We used to have those in both Middle and High school, wood shop, auto shop, etc. Perhaps instead of abandoning some schools and some teens, we could reopen those schools for the kids that find their interests aren't in the three R's. Or maybe allow for some resource, a voucher or something to enter a reasonably priced private vocational school.

DaveFagan said:

The point is that the standard educational SYSTEM in the USA only hits 35-40% of students. That's the books and teacher style in a standard classroom. In a machine shop environment, the student has to develop his reading skills for instructrion sets, then his algebra skills for digital programming, and keep accurate written records of his work. That's readin', writin', and rithmetic' from a non-standard, alternative educational system and perhaps it only hits 20%, but it's the part of the 60-65% that the standard system misses. You get the same results with a different motivator. Many of these students build their own businesses with hands on skill and motivation. Just an alternative, and it does not produce dummies.

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I hear what you're saying. It sounds good on the surface. You're saying that some people are just too stupid to finish high school. If they can't do that, they can't finish a trade school. But more importantly, read up on the stats. People who don't finish high school are doomed to a life of poverty. Some will start their own businesses (working on cars in their garages), but most will not be employable. A high school diploma is required for most legal employment that pays decently and provides benefits. The app doesn't ask if you are literate. The app asks if you finished high school. It's one way of screening the numerous applicants for those type of jobs, for one thing.

Hope should not be given up on students thinking of dropping out. Each and every one should be encouraged to get a high school diploma. Finishing is important, if only to learn to finish something. Second, to get that diploma that will enable him to qualify for a lot more jobs. THEN a trade school might be the ticket.

Summerwind said:

Sure but with conditions. Not sure what those are, but perhaps things like a part-time job or perhaps lower the age they can go to a low-tech school for electrician, that sort of thing. We used to have those in both Middle and High school, wood shop, auto shop, etc. Perhaps instead of abandoning some schools and some teens, we could reopen those schools for the kids that find their interests aren't in the three R's. Or maybe allow for some resource, a voucher or something to enter a reasonably priced private vocational school.

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You know, I kind of like that idea. Make it so that they are still in school, but doing stuff they actually care about.

JJB3333 said:

Ok so i would just like to ask something tha has been bugging me. Sould the drop our grade be lowered.I mean of course i accept that all kids should have an education, but why are we wasting money on so many kids who dont want to be there. We should have it so that say from 9th grade, if the kids want to drop out and riun their lifes, it is their choice. if the parents dont want them to, they can force them to stay in school, but you have all of these kids who are failing classes, ditching, sometimes even going to drugs, and we waste money putting them through year after years of school.

So question: should the drop out grade be lowered from 11th grade

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The drop out age should not be lowered. What needs to change is for politicians to stop trying to appease the ignorant masses that all kids need to take Algebra or learn about Shakespeare. We are wasting the kids time that don't need this, teachers time and money. We need to get these kids into pathways that will help them succeed in whatever trade they are interested in.

Peter Grimm said:

Yes. Your teacher does not need to be smarter than you for you to learn something.

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At our school we are trying to get the student to be the teacher. They are included on the task, the parameters, the grading rubric peer and self assess. The teacher, in my case, just guides them and helps them during the process.

Bodhisattva said:

The drop out age should not be lowered. What needs to change is for politicians to stop trying to appease the ignorant masses that all kids need to take Algebra or learn about Shakespeare. We are wasting the kids time that don't need this, teachers time and money. We need to get these kids into pathways that will help them succeed in whatever trade they are interested in.

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You see I would be OK with that. But in all reality, we are the farthest away from that. Consider that in most school districts, you have to take 4 years worth of English in high school, even when you cant see the point, even when you will never use it in the real world, even when its just busy work.

JJB3333 said:

You see I would be OK with that. But in all reality, we are the farthest away from that. Consider that in most school districts, you have to take 4 years worth of English in high school, even when you cant see the point, even when you will never use it in the real world, even when its just busy work.

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As a teacher I am well aware of this folly. I live in a small town in a rural part of New Zealand which means that nobody lives here. The school though must follow Ministry guidelines and that means making English, Maths and Science MANDATORY 'til 10th and 11th grades. What a waste for so many of these dairy farmer kids. I was trying, and I mean trying, to teach many of these kids geographic and historical concepts that they couldn't even begin to grasp. I had a year of hell my first year here. I asked one boy what he thought he would do after failing all his classes and he didn't care. Said he would work on his dad's dairy farm and some of the other boys were too. I tried to make a link to what they were learning and couldn't. Asked them what they knew about dairy farming. They went off about how many cows per hour they could milk, what the machines did and how to fix them, tractors, feeding schedules, the works. I was actually stunned. I thought what a waste of a year we all have had. They are experts and dairy farming. I know that I sure as hell am not doing any of that and I know I want my milk and cheese, so I wished them good luck. But again, what a waste of time trying to teach them about tsunamis and the Vietnam War!

Bodhisattva said:

As a teacher I am well aware of this folly. I live in a small town in a rural part of New Zealand which means that nobody lives here. The school though must follow Ministry guidelines and that means making English, Maths and Science MANDATORY 'til 10th and 11th grades. What a waste for so many of these dairy farmer kids. I was trying, and I mean trying, to teach many of these kids geographic and historical concepts that they couldn't even begin to grasp. I had a year of hell my first year here. I asked one boy what he thought he would do after failing all his classes and he didn't care. Said he would work on his dad's dairy farm and some of the other boys were too. I tried to make a link to what they were learning and couldn't. Asked them what they knew about dairy farming. They went off about how many cows per hour they could milk, what the machines did and how to fix them, tractors, feeding schedules, the works. I was actually stunned. I thought what a waste of a year we all have had. They are experts and dairy farming. I know that I sure as hell am not doing any of that and I know I want my milk and cheese, so I wished them good luck. But again, what a waste of time trying to teach them about tsunamis and the Vietnam War!

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Ha tell me about it. i live in a farming community and everyone is either freaking geniuses or idiots who expect just to farm and expect that their kids and grandkids will probably do the same. Personally i'm about average, but i couldn't live like that. I want to make something of my self and a lot of these classes are just useless to me.

Thought. In american schools it is illegal to teach religion in public schools. Now I like science, but as it has officially become a religion (the church of Scientology), shouldn't it be illegal to teach sciences?

JJB3333 said:

Thought. In american schools it is illegal to teach religion in public schools. Now I like science, but as it has officially become a religion (the church of Scientology), shouldn't it be illegal to teach sciences?

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Scientology literally has NOTHING to do with science. He made up some whack story about Aliens bringing humans here 75 million years ago and then we forgot who we were and where we came from. We are Xenu or whatever it was... nothing to do with science. Nothing. Science Fiction maybe... but not science.