For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primary

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

vesper said:

The basis of Wilson's whole political theology was never based in individualism but collectivism.

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I'm guessing you haven't actually read his work. If you did, you would know it was meant to be the compromise to both, with traditional Democrats standing on the former, Bryan, Roosevelt, and Taft standing at the other end.

Has someone not read Wilson's unpublished manuscripts leading up to his election? Has someone not studied the Progressive era where the Socialist Party was very open at that time so much so that the first socialist was elected to Congress from Wisconsin? And a man by the name of Eugene Debs, a socialist, listed on many ballots across this country representing the Socialist party on multiple occasions during the Progressive erA. But oddly (NOT REALLY) after the election of Woodrow Wilson, the Socialist party seem to disappear and the reason...they found a friend in the Democrat party.

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You're conflating the organizational problems, social problems, and legal problems surrounding the Socialist Party's demise with a Populist-Party-like absorption with the Democratic Party. It had neither the organizational structure, nor the leadership's interest in doing much more than it was doing-which was an exceptionally half-assed book tour. With the outset of the War, criticism of the government was penalized, and as such the Socialists could not stand a chance. After the Bolshevik Revolution, the Red Scare also tainted any hopes their watered-down socialism stood at gaining prominence and acceptance from the American public.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

vesper said:

What a bunch of whoo wee. There are several types of conservatives alone within the Republican partyl Paleo conservatives, social conservatives, neo conservatives, fiscal conservatives. Stopping the trampling of the Constitution and restoring its first principles is a noble goal.

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From what I've seen Republicans talk about the upholding the Constitution, then once they get off their soapbox they move on to passing DOMA laws.:roll:

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

reinoe said:

From what I've seen Republicans talk about the upholding the Constitution, then once they get off their soapbox they move on to passing DOMA laws.:roll:

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Reinoe, I personally don't see where the Constitution allows the authority to pass DOMA or Same Sex Marriage. These social issues should have no bearing on the Federal government. They are state issues.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Fiddytree said:

I'm guessing you haven't actually read his work. If you did, you would know it was meant to be the compromise to both, with traditional Democrats standing on the former, Bryan, Roosevelt, and Taft standing at the other end.



You're conflating the organizational problems, social problems, and legal problems surrounding the Socialist Party's demise with a Populist-Party-like absorption with the Democratic Party. It had neither the organizational structure, nor the leadership's interest in doing much more than it was doing-which was an exceptionally half-assed book tour. With the outset of the War, criticism of the government was penalized, and as such the Socialists could not stand a chance. After the Bolshevik Revolution, the Red Scare also tainted any hopes their watered-down socialism stood at gaining prominence and acceptance from the American public.

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Oh plaleese don't spout off that their efforts were half assed! It's time for you take off those rose colored glasses. A trip to Wiki will prove that Eugene Debs efforts alone and his followers played a big role. To this day there is such a thing as the Eugene Debs Award where you find over the years union bosses, journalists who write columns in our daily newspapers, and other influencial characters receiving the coveted awards that reflect the spread of socialism ideology shared by Debs.

Bottom line for over a hundred years there have been people undermining our Constitutional form of government. Even after Wilson when Mussolini took power there were those convinced his type of fascism was just what we needed!

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

vesper said:

Oh plaleese don't spout off that their efforts were half assed! It's time for you take off those rose colored glasses. A trip to Wiki will prove that Eugene Debs efforts alone and his followers played a big role. To this day there is such a thing as the Eugene Debs Award where you find over the years union bosses, journalists who write columns in our daily newspapers, and other influencial characters receiving the coveted awards that reflect the spread of socialism ideology shared by Debs.

Bottom line for over a hundred years there have been people undermining our Constitutional form of government. Even after Wilson when Mussolini took power there were those convinced his type of fascism was just what we needed!

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Yeah, I would suggest you actually study the historiography of the progressive era more before spouting off this nonsense. Wikipedia, not so much. I'm still taking the guess that Beck influenced your viewpoint, or at very least, was complimentary to his strange interpretation of American intellectual history. This is hardly worth the time to debunk any further.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

as of right now, the most likely front runner I would vote for would be hill dog. Though she gets lots of flack for riding her husbands coat tails I always saw her as an effective political leader and her time at state made me fill that she could easily fit the role of an executive. Surely I'm not exactly enamored with the lady, but I'm looking for good leadership skills at this point and politics i can tolerate. If there is a more conservative candidate that I like, I'm sure I would have no issue sending my vote in that direction. But I expect the GOP will have another march of the crazies and finally a centrist who has to placate the base. Which isn't going to get my vote

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Fiddytree said:

I'm guessing you haven't actually read his work. If you did, you would know it was meant to be the compromise to both, with traditional Democrats standing on the former, Bryan, Roosevelt, and Taft standing at the other end.



You're conflating the organizational problems, social problems, and legal problems surrounding the Socialist Party's demise with a Populist-Party-like absorption with the Democratic Party. It had neither the organizational structure, nor the leadership's interest in doing much more than it was doing-which was an exceptionally half-assed book tour. With the outset of the War, criticism of the government was penalized, and as such the Socialists could not stand a chance. After the Bolshevik Revolution, the Red Scare also tainted any hopes their watered-down socialism stood at gaining prominence and acceptance from the American public.

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there was a recent hardcore history on the american red scare that I liked a lot. I know as a trained historian you might find carlin difficult to listen to, but as an entertainment show on history I always enjoyed him

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Dr. Chuckles said:

there was a recent hardcore history on the american red scare that I liked a lot. I know as a trained historian you might find carlin difficult to listen to, but as an entertainment show on history I always enjoyed him

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There's always fun stuff to watch/listen to.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Fiddytree said:

Yeah, I would suggest you actually study the historiography of the progressive era more before spouting off this nonsense. Wikipedia, not so much. I'm still taking the guess that Beck influenced your viewpoint, or at very least, was complimentary to his strange interpretation of American intellectual history. This is hardly worth the time to debunk any further.

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Well I suggest you stop calling what you don't agree with nonsense. My understanding of the history of the Progressive Era has been through much study. I don't know where you get this notion I have been influenced by Beck. Are you speaking of Glenn Beck the radio commentator? If so you are wrong. I obtained more knowledge on the subject and perspective than what you have presented in just reading the Annals of America History during that time period. I have read the unpublished manuscripts of Woodrow Wilson and it was easy to conclude he was a flaming Socialist. You haven't debunked anything I have stated.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

vesper said:

Well I suggest you stop calling what you don't agree with nonsense. My understanding of the history of the Progressive Era has been through much study. I don't know where you get this notion I have been influenced by Beck. Are you speaking of Glenn Beck the radio commentator? If so you are wrong. I obtained more knowledge on the subject and perspective than what you have presented in just reading the Annals of America History during that time period. I have read the unpublished manuscripts of Woodrow Wilson and it was easy to conclude he was a flaming Socialist. You haven't debunked anything I have stated.

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Anyone who claims Wilson was a raging socialist hardly knows what they're talking about. Of course, I wouldn't have the pleasure of watching you at a conference trying to pull that one off, but it would be amusing to guess the results.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Fiddytree said:

Anyone who claims Wilson was a raging socialist hardly knows what they're talking about. Of course, I wouldn't have the pleasure of watching you at a conference trying to pull that one off, but it would be amusing to guess the results.

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Wilson's unpublished manuscripts clearly expressed his socialist ideology. He is the Godfather of Progressivism/Liberalism as we know it today.

Wilson understood that the limits placed upon the power of the national government by the Constitution, and it limited the Progressives/liberals need to see it "relaxed" if not removed. You see having a Constitution grounded in the natural-rights principles of the Declaration of Independence was quite an obstacle for him. This meant, for Wilson, that both the Declaration and the Constitution had to be understood anew through a Progressive lens. So what did Wilson do? he reinterpretated the Founding. Wilson opposed the historical argument. Wilson even suggested that the Declaration ought to be understood by excluding from it the foundational statements on equality and natural rights contained in its first two paragraphs. In a 1911 address (which I will gladly see if I can find it on the internet), Wilson remarked that “the rhetorical introduction of the Declaration of Independence is the least part of it…. If you want to understand the real Declaration of Independence, do not repeat the preface.”

You know you and Wilson share a lot in common. Your standard of right has been replaced by the ideologies of multiculturalism and “value-neutral” positivism. That is why your ideology explained earlier is all over the map. :lol: Cheers!

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

vesper said:

Polling all year has Rand Paul as one of the top picks. So much so that since several polls started proving that to be a trend across the country, Paul has been lambasted with several hit pieces by several sources in the MSM. That tells me the left leaning media finds him a threat.

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Because polling 2 years before a primary has typically shown to be accurate. LMAO. Common sense, dude, you either have it or you don't. No spawn of Ron Paul will EVER sniff the white house steps. Ever.

That you can be 100 percent sure of. His daddy's too crazy.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Fiddytree said:

We should quote this just in case he's wrong. :mrgreen:

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Signed, sealed, delivered. Bought and paid for.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

vesper said:

Then you should be tickled pink it has been discovered that it was Jon Huntsman who leaked all the alleged personal **** about Herman Caine that ended his candidacy. Yes that sweet billionaire Mormon did that! LOL.

Your daily jolt: Jon Huntsman leaks brought down Herman Cain | Political Insider | www.ajc.com

But let's not stop there, Huntsman because he is a billionaire and his wealthy daddy funded 59% his campaign when it got strapped for cash while touting he wouldn't take federal funds like the other candidates. Like everyone is a billionaire! Ha. What a joke!

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Cain wasn't a serious candidate. He was the comic relief. Unless you're in a bubble, you know that. There was no way that such a person would have been nominated, much less elected, for the Presidency. He was not knowledgeable, not particularly intelligent, and resorted to 9-9-9 soundbites in response to questions. I would have been a more serious candidate.

Don't know what Huntsman revealed about Cain, but if there was something to reveal, it should be revealed. Nothing is a secret, when someone runs for the highest office. It ALL makes it out there, sooner or later.

Being a billionaire isn't in and of itself a bad thing. FDR was very wealthy and from the upper class. It's the bubble thing. Did he ever have a real job (as opposed to "joint ventures" with other rich men - that isn't a real job....it's getting together with other rich guys to buy businesses in trouble, a nd hiring other people to take them apart and sell the pieces).

Did Huntsman have a car elevator?

Chemicals Billionaire Jon Huntsman Boosts Children's Cancer Research With $50 Million Donation

He began his career as a White House staff assistant for Ronald Reagan, and was appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary of Commerce and United States Ambassador to Singapore by George H.W. Bush. Later as Deputy U.S. Trade Representative, he launched global trade negotiations in Doha in 2001 and guided the accession of China into the World Trade Organization. He also served as CEO of his family-owned Huntsman Corporation and chairman of the Huntsman Cancer Foundation.
While governor, he was named Chairman of the Western Governors Association, and joined the Executive Committee of the National Governors Association. Under his leadership, Utah was named the best managed state in America by the Pew Center on the States.[2] He won re-election in 2008 with nearly 78% of the vote and left office with approval ratings over 80%

BA in International Politics.

Keyboard player in a rock band.

But since he has spoken for a third party in the country, the Republican Party has gotten mad at him and withdrew invitation for him to speak at a convention. So I guess he won't win a primary.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

JumpinJack said:

I was impressed by Huntsman, ESPECIALLY his ability to speak Chinese. However, he was made fun of in his own party for knowing that language. (Some Republicans are suspicious of academic prowess and foreign knowledge.) I didn't think that Huntsman had the oomph, the charisma to win a nat'l election, though. But maybe the country is ready for someone low key. (I doubt it, tho.)

Herman Caine is a joke, IMO. His 9-9-9 plan was funny, but that's all. He wasn't a very knowledgeable man, didn't seem particularly intelligent, and didn't communicate well (except to repeat 9-9-9 a lot). He was the comic relief in the primary.

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I am betting Huntsman is sort of a specialist on Asia, I myself can speak Thai and Lao although Vietnamese was beyond my grasp. Vietnamese is quite close to Chinese or at least that is my impression. I liked Caine, now whether I would have ended up voting for him is another question had he won is another question. I just don't know, but I would have thought about it.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Of those listed, I'd like to see Huntsman, Christie, Rubio, or Paul take the nomination.

I'd be open to Cruz, Ryan, and Walker but feel they'd have a harder time winning the general than the other three

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

JumpinJack said:

Cain wasn't a serious candidate. He was the comic relief. Unless you're in a bubble, you know that. There was no way that such a person would have been nominated, much less elected, for the Presidency. He was not knowledgeable, not particularly intelligent, and resorted to 9-9-9 soundbites in response to questions. I would have been a more serious candidate.

Don't know what Huntsman revealed about Cain, but if there was something to reveal, it should be revealed. Nothing is a secret, when someone runs for the highest office. It ALL makes it out there, sooner or later.

Being a billionaire isn't in and of itself a bad thing. FDR was very wealthy and from the upper class. It's the bubble thing. Did he ever have a real job (as opposed to "joint ventures" with other rich men - that isn't a real job....it's getting together with other rich guys to buy businesses in trouble, a nd hiring other people to take them apart and sell the pieces).

.

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Huntsman's campaign put out slanderous comments attacking Caine's character. It didn't have much to do with "truth". Funny all this stuff about Caine has resurfaced lately. I'm sure it has to do with him being a Tea Party activist. There is an all out effort underway to paint them as "right-wing extremists" by the left and the Republican establishment (two peas in a big government pod). Character assassination is nothing new in the world of politics. I don't know how you can say Caine was not knowledgeable/intelligent with the list of accomplishments on his resume. The difference between him and Huntsman is Caine was born poor in Atlanta Georgia and became a self made millionaire. There were many folks who did not agree with his flat tax that included business and private citizens. He wasn't my choice last election but I did admire his strong stand for free markets and appreciated his example of how in this country you can be born dirt poor and and still have the same opportunities to become successful if you are willing to work for it.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Hey guys, could we please take the history stuff to another thread and kinda keep this one on topic. Thank you in advance.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Zyphlin said:

Of those listed, I'd like to see Huntsman, Christie, Rubio, or Paul take the nomination.

I'd be open to Cruz, Ryan, and Walker but feel they'd have a harder time winning the general than the other three

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I really can't imagine huntsman getting the nod. Though i would certainly vote for him(dependent on how he ran his campaign)

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Dr. Chuckles said:

I really can't imagine huntsman getting the nod. Though i would certainly vote for him(dependent on how he ran his campaign)

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Oh, I agree that Huntsman has a slim chance of getting the nod. But he'd still be someone I'd be happy to see win the Primary.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Paul Ryan

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I'm fine with him as a Veep. I want a President to have Executive Experience. However, he is the one on this list I would get the most excited about. The problem is, I really think he is too nice to do it.

Rand Paul

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No. No executive experience. We ran an experiment in 2008 with what happens when you elevate a Senator with approximately 30 seconds worth of experience and a history that suggests strong ideological fervor into the office of the Chief Executive. It went badly.

Ted Cruz

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Cruz is smarter than Paul, but the experience story still applies.

Marco Rubio

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Rubio almost ties with Ryan - and Ryan only really wins because I am a complete geek, and am therefore drawn to my own kind. Leadership of the Florida House counts as some leadership experience, and may have crossover to successfully interacting with Congress as President (something this President has failed miserably at). Additionally, Rubio has that "It" factor - the ability to explain conservative ideas and ideals in simple and compelling language, while remaining humble and appealing. He appears to have gotten suckered in a bit on Immigration Reform, and would have to explain that, but it's not a serious issue. He would probably be the best candidate, my personal feelings aside. But still, no Executive Experience, not even a reelection as a Senator.

Chris Christie

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I don't trust him, I don't like him. I'm sure on a personal level we could hang out - I've got a pretty abusive sense of humor, and we could get along. But Obamagirl2012 has screwed over other conservatives to prop himself up too much for active support.

Scott Walker

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Hm. Maybe. Taking on unions in Wisconsin was a ballsy move, and the win was impressive. Executive Experience, check. Reelection, check. Hard reforms, check. The question become, can he capture that "It" that Rubio exudes? I would have to know more, but I could see myself supporting Walker.

Jeb Bush

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:roll: yeah, that's what we need. Another bush to run against another clinton.

Jon Huntsman

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No. I would literally rather watch 4 years of Hillary bumbling around in the White House and take the country through the fiscal crises that an entitlement system failure would induce than listen to that smug, self-satisfied, arrogant little pissant on my television, or, in fact, anywhere. If he comes down to one of the final candidates, I will happily back any candidate on this list or any of the other lists floating around against him. I would back the crazy-hair lady from the Birther Nuts against Jon Huntsman and sleep well at night. If he becomes the GOP nominee, I would sooner set him on fire than vote for him.

Alan Keyes

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See: Paul, Rand.

Other

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Anywho. If anybody needs me I'll be sitting outside Mitch Daniels' College President housing, holding up a boombox.




Why no Bobby Jindal?

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Worth Noting.

This is Christie's high-water mark, before other Republicans really start to do him damage.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

Other: Gary Johnson

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

cpwill said:

Why no Bobby Jindal?

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Because there are only a max of 10 poll spots and I had them all filled before I thought of him. I am more bummed I missed Herman Caine, because I actually like Caine, I am more indifferent on Jindal.

Re: For Non Democrats Only: Who Would You Like To See Win The 2016 Republican Primar

cpwill said:

Worth Noting.

This is Christie's high-water mark, before other Republicans really start to do him damage.

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I am not sure I buy into that. He is still the most popular republican at this point, and if it is his high-water mark before other republicans start to damage him, then the same can be said for other republicans.