View Poll Results: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?

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  • Afghanistan

    8 8.42%
  • Pakistan

    47 49.47%
  • Egypt

    3 3.16%
  • Saudi Arabia

    15 15.79%
  • Iraq

    0 0%
  • Israel

    13 13.68%
  • France

    1 1.05%
  • South Korea

    1 1.05%
  • Other

    7 7.37%
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Thread: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

  1. #101
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    In each of those cases, through aide we have bought a certain level of influence. Not so with Israel, who takes the aide and does as they please.

    And you will note that Gardener was entirely wrong in his explanation of why he thought I chose Israel. So apparently he does not know my opinions. This is entirely predictable due to how Gardener views things in regards to Israel. He does not realize that you can oppose Israel's actions and not be anti-Semitic.
    Israel is a sovereign state regardless of the 3 billion dollars in aid the US sends per year. As such the US and Israel may have disagreements. The US-Israeli relationship however is based on way more than simply this aide, it is based on the mutual geopolitical interests the two nations share, the economic relations and the ideological similarities. To claim that the US should trust Israel less than it does Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. as such is to be unrealistic and disconnected.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  2. #102
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    To claim that the US should trust Israel less than it does Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. as such is to be unrealistic and disconnected.
    It's really pathetic how people keep playing these underhanded little games. Time after time after freaking time they single out Israel as some sort of unique source of perfidy in this world and then turn around and try to claim anybody who has noticed their bias or reacted to their hysteria is irrational. It is such a common form of projection that it has been fairly-well hardwired into the very fabric of the overall rhetoric of their hatred. Very De Rigueur.
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  3. #103
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    It's really pathetic how people keep playing these underhanded little games. Time after time after freaking time they single out Israel as some sort of unique source of perfidy in this world and then turn around and try to claim anybody who has noticed their bias or reacted to their hysteria is irrational. It is such a common form of projection that it has been fairly-well hardwired into the very fabric of the overall rhetoric of their hatred. Very De Rigueur.
    It may be an issue of hate for some, but it is difficult to argue otherwise given how Israel avoids the sanction of the U.N. and other international alliances despite its shadowy nuclear status. That is something that other nations in the Middle East (or anywhere) do not enjoy.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 11-02-13 at 03:38 PM.
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  4. #104
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    It may be an issue of hate for some, but it is difficult to argue otherwise given how Israel avoids the sanction of the U.N. and other international alliances despite its shadowy nuclear status. That is something that other nations in the Middle East (or anywhere) do not enjoy.
    I tend to disregard appeals to popularity as well as appeals to authority because they are such fallacies, and both of which are evident in any use of the United Nations as a barometer for what is just or fair.

    Since this same body passed a truly moronic sanction equating the very existence of Israel with racism, why anybody would place trust in the United Nations is beyond me.
    Last edited by Gardener; 11-02-13 at 04:12 PM.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  5. #105
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I tend to disregard appeals to popularity as well as appeals to authority because they are such fallacies, and both of which are evident in any use of the United Nations as a barometer for what is just or fair.

    Since this same body passed a truly moronic sanction equating the very existence of Israel with racism, why anybody would place trust in the United Nations is beyond me.
    And yet we depend on this and other "idiotic organizations" to maintain stability across the world. There's nothing to stop dozens of nations from immediately becoming nuclear powers except subjection to the regulatory commissions of the NPT, out of the recognition that, although nuclear weapons are a tempting equalizer, the chance of nuclear conflict rises exponentially the more nations obtain the capability to use them.

    It also doesn't get around the fact that the world's nuclear club extends a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy to Israel when every other state that does not adhere strictly to the treaty or who refuses to sign it draws ire and punishment.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 11-02-13 at 05:37 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  6. #106
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    And yet we depend on this and other "idiotic organizations" to maintain stability across the world. There's nothing to stop dozens of nations from immediately becoming nuclear powers except subjection to the regulatory commissions of the NPT, out of the recognition that, although nuclear weapons are a tempting equalizer, the chance of nuclear conflict rises exponentially the more nations obtain the capability to use them.

    It also doesn't get around the fact that the world's nuclear club extends a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy to Israel when every other state that does not adhere strictly to the treaty or who refuses to sign it draws ire and punishment.
    Perhaps the notion of the tyranny of the majority is no longer being taught in schools. It was in my day, but I do have to admit we received a more comprehensive education then.

    If you think it's just groovy for a bunch of Arab and Communist states to gang upon one tiny country and declare their very existence "racist", that's up to you. I happen to know better than to fall for such nonsense.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  7. #107
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Perhaps the notion of the tyranny of the majority is no longer being taught in schools. It was in my day, but I do have to admit we received a more comprehensive education then.

    If you think it's just groovy for a bunch of Arab and Communist states to gang upon one tiny country and declare their very existence "racist", that's up to you. I happen to know better than to fall for such nonsense.
    Perhaps the notion of nuclear warfare is lost on you. Fact is the power to wipe out entire civilizations and even the Earth's protective atmosphere is easily within reach of dozens (if not hundreds) of economically and culturally competitive political organizations, and allowing exceptions to the NPT undermines and threatens the permanency of the entire concept.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  8. #108
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Perhaps the notion of nuclear war is lost on you. Fact is the power to wipe out entire civilizations and even the Earth's protective atmosphere is easily within reach, and allowing exceptions to the NPT undermines and threatens the permanency of the entire concept.
    How anything I have said about your fallacious reasoning gives any indication I am lost to the notion of nuclear war is beyond me. Many of my professors were so steeped in Kissinger back when I was in school that I was muttering M.A.D. doctrine in my sleep. Of course, that was in the early seventies and so much has changed since. Heck,I ever recall an argument I had with one who was particularly enamored with Kissinger where I tried to point out the flaw in such a doctrine as it predisposed rational behavior based upon the self interest of nation states, and did not take into account the varying land masses of these nation states.

    If you are really concerned with nuclear war, I should do you a favor and point you in the direction of Pakistan or Iran, which is obviously not on the list. If you think Israel is the problem, you haven't been paying attention.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  9. #109
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    How anything I have said about your fallacious reasoning gives any indication I am lost to the notion of nuclear war is beyond me. Many of my professors were so steeped in Kissinger back when I was in school that I was muttering M.A.D. doctrine in my sleep. Of course, that was in the early seventies and so much has changed since. Heck,I ever recall an argument I had with one who was particularly enamored with Kissinger where I tried to point out the flaw in such a doctrine as it predisposed rational behavior based upon the self interest of nation states, and did not take into account the varying land masses of these nation states.

    If you are really concerned with nuclear war, I should do you a favor and point you in the direction of Pakistan or Iran, which is obviously not on the list. If you think Israel is the problem, you haven't been paying attention.
    My reasoning is fallacious? You are trying to push the concept that the U.N. adds up to a "tyranny of the majority" when its leading officers (the U.N. Security Council) consist of representatives from the world's most powerful hegemons.

    It is a problem because maintaining a "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy towards Israel undermines the concept that their primary regional rivals should conform to the treaty, or cooperate with the organizations it tasks with fulfilling the the treaty's objectives. Worse yet, it encourages the other leading hegemons (China, Russia, etc) to take a limp wristed approach when it comes to their friends flouting the treaty.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  10. #110
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    re: Which US Ally is the Most Untrustworthy?[W:184:189]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    My reasoning is fallacious? You are trying to push the concept that the U.N. adds up to a "tyranny of the majority" when its leading officers (the U.N. Security Council) consist of representatives from the world's most powerful hegemons.

    It is a problem because maintaining a "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy towards Israel undermines the concept that their primary regional rivals should conform to the treaty, or cooperate with the organizations it tasks with fulfilling the the treaty's objectives. Worse yet, it encourages the other leading hegemons (China, Russia, etc) to take a limp wristed approach when it comes to their friends flouting the treaty.
    Yes,your reasoning is fallacious. Luckily for you, there should be plenty of time left for you to familiarize yourself with the logical fallacies inherent in an appeal to authority and an appeal to popularity. That the United Nations would single out one tiny country and declare their very existence to be "racist" is so absolutely ridiculous that any thinking person would laugh at the idea and question their judgement.

    Sadly, it is increasingly difficult to find thinking people these days in an era when people place such blind trust in an organization that they view such notions as valid.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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