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Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 45.2%
  • No

    Votes: 34 54.8%

  • Total voters
    62
I have 40% custody. I will get 50%-100% of at least one of my daughters in a couple of years as she doesn't want to live with her mother at all. She couldn't plan anything that is any more complicated than going going to the supermarket.

Oh, I assumed that your ex was in the states, not down in the Z-land.
 
i'd disagree. No young people aspire to be a teacher. they do it because its a sure job and a source of income. They have no true passion for teaching.

Excuse me? I wanted to be a teacher because I LOVE teaching kids to read and write. If I could make the same amount doing some desk job, I wouldn't take it. I wouldn't even take it if they paid me a little more. There are many teachers who have a true passion for teaching --- they're just being weeded out by this massive government **** called Common Core that they're making us do. I know for sure I won't teach in a public school the rest of my career if this is the path we're taking from now on. The federal government is bound and determined to make teachers who love their jobs hate them.
 
I don't doubt you feel very strongly about the services you offer children, and I commend you for that, but I'd make a couple of points:

1. I'm not sure about qualifications in the US, but here in Canada a doctor spends far more time and far more money to get the educational requirements necessary to be licensed to practice medicine - similarly, lawyers spend more time and money on their training.

2. Doctors and lawyers have significant overhead costs, regardless of whether they are operating on their own or if they're in a hospital/practice. Teachers are not paying for their classroom and supplies used in plying their trade.

3. Doctors and lawyers also have costs related to advertising and government mandated regulatory reporting whereas teachers complete documentation as part of the job but they don't fund it.

4. Doctors and lawyers can be sued and frequently are if their clients feel they've received inferior or unprofessional care. As a result, they must pay significantly for liability insurance, in the case of doctors often in the six figures area. Teachers, not only can't personally be sued for inferior or unprofessional care, they have a union that protects them and pays their legal fees.

5. Doctors and lawyers work year round, 10 - 15 hour days, on weekends, and are frequently on call. Teachers hours of work aren't nearly as onerous and teachers get significant time off during the year to recover and reenvigorate.

I'm retired after 30 years in education administration so I have some knowledge and sympathy for the position you advocate, but I don't think the comparisons are valid. I contend that the very best teachers I've come in contact with are ones that absolutely love teaching and have dedicated their lives to it and they are to be honored and respected. But lots of "professions" are honorable, respectable, and provide society as a whole with "priceless" benefits. I've had contact with an absolute saint who provided homecare for my mom in the last 10 years of her life and she was paid a pittance. This saint actually did save my mom's life on a couple of occasions.

I don't know what teachers are paid in your jurisdiction - I can tell you here in Toronto, elementary and secondary school teachers have a range that goes from about $35,000 for a first year teacher up to just under $100,000 for a fully qualified and experienced teacher. At least here in Toronto, the vast majority of teachers are in the upper pay brackets, with 20 plus years experience. While they constantly, continuously, carp about not being appreciated and deserving more in pay and benefits, there are precious few who give up teaching for another career. At least here in Toronto, with over 3 months of they year not teaching, teaching is a damn good career and very well compensated - it's why lots are trying to get in and few leave.

One of my arguments as to why we should NOT be paid the same is because of two things you lay out. The cost of education for those other fields is much more expensive and that we do get so much time off. That is why I don't complain and am one of the few teachers that don't support unions goals of pay increases every single time it comes up. I would like to be paid more only so that I am not just getting by. I brought up the points regarding the varying nature of our job because so many seem to think that we just give directions and make kids copy stuff. You obviously know that this is not even close and knowing your experience now there is no need to go that route again.

I have taught in the USA and now in New Zealand. The pay is about the same. It is good and I love the job and lifestyle.
 
It depends what a person is teaching. What it the value in the private sector for a Bachelor's degree in history, geography, art, music, history....

Do you REALLY think they make notably more than teachers in terms of salary, benefits and job security?

So, we should stop teaching history, geography, art, music and history, as it has no value in the private sector?

Do I really think who makes notably more than teachers?
 
Oh, I assumed that your ex was in the states, not down in the Z-land.

Oh. Nope. She is here. Lives down the road, as does everybody since there are only 1,000 or so people that live here. She has nothing to do with her family so she wanted a big move. I am very close to my family but since she said it would be about us "Starting over" so that we could stay married, I agreed. Within months of moving here it was clear that she would not change and we were done. So I moved around the world away from family, have to deal with this BPD bitch and her HCP fiancee for the next 8 years until the girls are 16.
 
i'd disagree. No young people aspire to be a teacher. they do it because its a sure job and a source of income. They have no true passion for teaching.

then you don't know a lot of teachers, and obviously aren't one yourself.
 
Seriously, when we have "Lawyer Appreciation" week or a little kid walks up to an accountant and says, "thank you sir, you helped me out so much" or the Price Is Right has a bunch of shows saluting architects, we'll start talking about who has it better.
 
If I thought that was true, then I'd argue for higher wages.

As long as a teacher makes more than 30K, I don't see a need for an adjustment.

Yeah, there's a few states below $30 k average starting pay.
 
Here are my thoughts on this subject --

I've known veteran teachers making $70,000+ and doing jack squat. I've also known teachers making that much who work their asses off. The flip side is true too. I've known teachers making $30,000 and they're HORRIBLE teachers....then again, some are EXCELLENT teachers. Quality of teachers has little to do with pay and more to do with their work ethic. Some teachers have become so complacent and lazy in their near-retirement years. Some never have lost the joy of teaching. If we paid every teacher $100,000, the same lazy-ass teachers would still be lazy asses. The same hard-working, heart completely into it teachers wouldn't change either.

And one more thing --- the #1 problem with education BY FAR is the parents and home lives of these children.


Maybe I should have been more specific, but I think you missed the part "with the due education, of course."

How many doctors do you know with crap work ethic?
That's because they have 8 plus years of schooling plus 5 years of residency/fellowship/research.
They're job is incredibly important, and so are teacher's jobs.
I want to make teaching a job that kids grow up and dream about being.
So many smart people with high work ethic are turned off by the low pay and low respect teachers receive.
They deserve better.
 
Yeah, there's a few states below $30 k average starting pay.

I'm good with that, if they're relatively "poor" states.

Around here, if you made 30K a year, you could live quite comfortably. Of course, I believe the average starting teacher wage for Alabama is closer to 40.
 
Seriously, when we have "Lawyer Appreciation" week or a little kid walks up to an accountant and says, "thank you sir, you helped me out so much" or the Price Is Right has a bunch of shows saluting architects, we'll start talking about who has it better.

Teachers do get their share of recognition.

I'm not sure just why you seem to think this is a bad thing, but whatever.

They also get their share of know nothing yahoos telling them that they get paid too much, that if only they could be fired more easily, schools would be better, that they only work part time, that "those who can do" and all that sort of nonsense.

So, it all balances out, doesn't it?
 
Maybe I should have been more specific, but I think you missed the part "with the due education, of course."

How many doctors do you know with crap work ethic?
That's because they have 8 plus years of schooling plus 5 years of residency/fellowship/research.
They're job is incredibly important, and so are teacher's jobs.
I want to make teaching a job that kids grow up and dream about being.
So many smart people with high work ethic are turned off by the low pay and low respect teachers receive.
They deserve better.

If I was a doctor, I'd smack the hell out of you for comparing me to a teacher insofar as work ethic and required learning.
 
I'm good with that, if they're relatively "poor" states.

Around here, if you made 30K a year, you could live quite comfortably. Of course, I believe the average starting teacher wage for Alabama is closer to 40.

Certainly. In other areas, like our state, you run into the problem where you can't afford to live there if you aren't making a lot more, and teachers (along with other jobs not in that specific field) are below that level. It's sad, but I don't think you can get a way out of that problem.
 
Teachers do get their share of recognition.

I'm not sure just why you seem to think this is a bad thing, but whatever.

They also get their share of know nothing yahoos telling them that they get paid too much, that if only they could be fired more easily, schools would be better, that they only work part time, that "those who can do" and all that sort of nonsense.

So, it all balances out, doesn't it?

Teachers get your share...my share...the whole block's share...that neighborhood across the street - their share...

I'm not saying that it's better. I'm saying that self-actualization is also a form of compensation. There are SEVERAL legitimate, quantitative, objective reasons as to why teachers don't make obscene money. I prefer them over rants, raves, and appeals to emotion.
 
Maybe I should have been more specific, but I think you missed the part "with the due education, of course."

How many doctors do you know with crap work ethic?
That's because they have 8 plus years of schooling plus 5 years of residency/fellowship/research.
They're job is incredibly important, and so are teacher's jobs.
I want to make teaching a job that kids grow up and dream about being.
So many smart people with high work ethic are turned off by the low pay and low respect teachers receive.
They deserve better.

Low teacher pay is a myth. Most teachers are paid well and many are paid waaaay more than they deserve.
 
I don't know what teachers are paid in your jurisdiction - I can tell you here in Toronto, elementary and secondary school teachers have a range that goes from about $35,000 for a first year teacher up to just under $100,000 for a fully qualified and experienced teacher. At least here in Toronto, the vast majority of teachers are in the upper pay brackets, with 20 plus years experience. While they constantly, continuously, carp about not being appreciated and deserving more in pay and benefits, there are precious few who give up teaching for another career.

I can't speak about Toronto, but I can speak for the school system where I do data analysis.

I just ran an experience report and converted that into chart form.

ExperienceDistribution.jpg


"Steps" in our system equate to years of experience. The visual representation shows the distribution of experience over time.

We hire 150-200 Teacher every summer for the next school year. A couple of dozen are typically due to retirement, some for performance, some for spouses relocating, etc. - but the vast majority are for people that couldn't hack teaching after swallowing the Blue Pill (Matrix Reference) and thought teaching was a cake-walk and went looking for employment elsewhere.

So while it might seem like there are a lot of old hang-out teachers, the reality is that the vast majority have under 20 years and I can state that these figures would be pretty close for the surrounding school systems in this area (of which there are 8).



** The line spike on the right side represents all teachers with 35 or more years experience as that is out top official grade, those with more then 35 receive the equivalent of an addition stipend for additional years.


>>>>
 
I can't speak about Toronto, but I can speak for the school system where I do data analysis.

I just ran an experience report and converted that into chart form.

View attachment 67155870


"Steps" in our system equate to years of experience. The visual representation shows the distribution of experience over time.

We hire 150-200 Teacher every summer for the next school year. A couple of dozen are typically due to retirement, some for performance, some for spouses relocating, etc. - but the vast majority are for people that couldn't hack teaching after swallowing the Blue Pill (Matrix Reference) and thought teaching was a cake-walk and went looking for employment elsewhere.

So while it might seem like there are a lot of old hang-out teachers, the reality is that the vast majority have under 20 years and I can state that these figures would be pretty close for the surrounding school systems in this area (of which there are 8).



** The line spike on the right side represents all teachers with 35 or more years experience as that is out top official grade, those with more then 35 receive the equivalent of an addition stipend for additional years.


>>>>

Thanks for the info - clearly, Toronto is a far more mature system than the one you presented.

In Toronto, the pay scale doesn't just go by years on the job but additional qualifications received over time. In effect, there are ten categories for experience, say along the horizontal axis and ten categories for additional qualifications along the vertical axis. In Toronto, about 60% of all teachers are in the upper right corner with maximum experience and maximum qualifications making them paid at the highest rate possible.

In addition, teachers' superannuation (pension) is unlimited up to a maximum of 100% of salary - pension is 2% of salary for each year of employment.

Finally, the government passed legislation a few years back making mandatory retirement at 65 illegal unless a person is physically or mentally unable to perform the duties.

As a result of all this, we have a very mature workforce making the most money and not retiring in sufficient numbers to allow as many new teachers into the systems as management would like.
 
I teach on a college level. I kinda enjoy reading what all these experts think about what is happening in schools today. Even though some have not driven though a campus for years. Pretty entertaining. Many of the real experts around here I bet are high school grads...probably.
Before I even consider posting in this thread, how many people here actually have experience in education, and how many are just regurgitating the same stuff they hear from the corporate media?
 
Thanks for the info - clearly, Toronto is a far more mature system than the one you presented.

In Toronto, the pay scale doesn't just go by years on the job but additional qualifications received over time. In effect, there are ten categories for experience, say along the horizontal axis and ten categories for additional qualifications along the vertical axis. In Toronto, about 60% of all teachers are in the upper right corner with maximum experience and maximum qualifications making them paid at the highest rate possible.

In addition, teachers' superannuation (pension) is unlimited up to a maximum of 100% of salary - pension is 2% of salary for each year of employment.

Finally, the government passed legislation a few years back making mandatory retirement at 65 illegal unless a person is physically or mentally unable to perform the duties.

As a result of all this, we have a very mature workforce making the most money and not retiring in sufficient numbers to allow as many new teachers into the systems as management would like.


#1 - We have also have multiple "lanes" as we call them for differing qualifications, 9 with a 10th if you count stipends for National Board Certified Teachers. I was addressing the experience portion of your statement.

#2 - You said "the vast majority of teachers are in the upper pay brackets, with 20 plus years experience." I simply provided a counterpoint that that isn't likely true, if you were to pull an experience distribution of your school system I'd bet it look similar to ours where most of your teacher population falls under the 20 year mark.

#3 - As you say, teacher can reach the top pay scale at 10 years. Therefore just because teachers on are on the top payscale does not mean that the "vast majority of teachers" have 20+ years.


>>>>
 
nat avg. 35,000 dollars/year

I'm not sure where you teach, but obviously they pay you better.

That's national starting salary. Let's not pretend that the average teacher in America is getting paid a starting salary because we all know it isn't true.

And a salary of $35,000 at 22 years old? THAT is too low? Really?

I work in a low income district. The average teacher salary in my district is about $45,000. That's like twice the amount most people in town make.
 
That's national starting salary. Let's not pretend that the average teacher in America is getting paid a starting salary because we all know it isn't true.

And a salary of $35,000 at 22 years old? THAT is too low? Really?

I work in a low income district. The average teacher salary in my district is about $45,000. That's like twice the amount most people in town make.

And I made $58,000 after 4 years in CA.
 
That's national starting salary. Let's not pretend that the average teacher in America is getting paid a starting salary because we all know it isn't true.

And a salary of $35,000 at 22 years old? THAT is too low? Really?

I work in a low income district. The average teacher salary in my district is about $45,000. That's like twice the amount most people in town make.

my apologies, I was in a rush and grabbed a chart without reading it.

I see the point you are trying to make.

So, you would be an advocate of higher standards, but same pay?
 
So, you would be an advocate of higher standards, but same pay?

I'm an advocate of simple standards --- do your flippin' job. If you don't do your job, you should be fired. Of course, the unions will never allow that to happen.
 
Compared to other occupations, teachers do make decent money. It wasn't always that way, and it didn't become so because teachers started making a lot more money.

It is because other occupations are making a lot less compared to the cost of living.
 
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