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Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 45.2%

  • No

    Votes: 34 54.8%
  • Total voters
    62
Zariak said:
Okay, I was following you until you decided to turn this into a partisan issue, which it doesn't have to be.

Please provide the evidence that shows that the average parochial/private school student costs less to educate.

Do not dumb my words down.

You cannot have effective doctors if you pay them 32K a year. Their job is too damn important

Educators are just as important, if not, more important than doctors. Isn't it time we raised the standards?
If you want to work "smarter", then we need to start with the people who make our children "smarter."
You wonder why there is litle corollary between spending and education quality as it is, it's because we're not using the money effectively, of course.
How do we use the money effectively? Pay money for better teachers.
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The pay that we allocate to our teachers is greater than any other country in the world.

How do they do it?
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I think that in any environment where there's someone willing to pay more in order to get a higher quality professional, higher salaries are going to be needed in order to get access to better-than-average quality.

Higher salaries do not in and of themselves ensure quality. For that you have to have sound hiring practices and oversight.
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As I understand what it happening right now, the educational system is cutting back on the numbers of educators that are employed. This must mean that there are some who are out of work.

If there are more than one person looking to get the same job, we should be able to get the best of that group to fill that job at a lower rate of pay.

You know, like EVERY OTHER BUSINESS IN THE COUNTRY is doing right now.
 
yes, but i'd say school funding and class design is more important. the best teacher in the world is going to have a challenge with huge class sizes and mandated instruction techniques no matter how much you pay him or her.

if i started a school tomorrow, here's what i'd do : classes meet every other day for twice as long, with lecture followed by assignments. the teacher would tutor during the assignment section, and lectures would also be put on youtube for later review. max class size of 25.
 
code1211 said:
As I understand what it happening right now, the educational system is cutting back on the numbers of educators that are employed. This must mean that there are some who are out of work.

If there are more than one person looking to get the same job, we should be able to get the best of that group to fill that job at a lower rate of pay.

You know, like EVERY OTHER BUSINESS IN THE COUNTRY is doing right now.
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If all you want to do is fill a position with a technically qualified candidate, or if so many positions have been cut that higher quality teachers are out of work, sure.
 
Bob N said:
They won't take the job for low rates. Think about it. If you're a mechanic and you're good at what you do, and there are mechanics out there making $25.00 an hour, are you going to take $8.00 an hour? :shrug:
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When the Wisconsin Government workers were up in arms about the draconian cuts imposed by the governor, it was almost humorous how the math worked out. The average educator in that state in the public schools, not administrators by educator, was earning more than 50K/year.

The people that these folks educated, including themselves, averaged out to an average wage of about 35K/year.

The teachers were educating people to a level that allowed them to earn 35K and were demanding a pay rate 40% higher supported by the workers who were making 40% less.

What's wrong with this picture?

Regarding your mechanic analogy, if the mechanic was good, regardless of his seniority, he would be making the top rate. If he was ineffective or worse, produced damage, he would not be well paid.

What is wrong with paying based on outcomes?
 
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code1211 said:
When the Wisconsin Government workers were up in arms about the draconian cuts imposed by the governor, it was almost humorous how the math worked out. The average educator in that state in the public schools, not administrators by educator, was earning more than 50K/year.

The people that these folks educated, including themselves, averaged out to an average wage of about 35K/year.

The teachers were educating people to a level that allowed them to earn 35K and were demanding a pay rate 40% higher supported by the workers who were making 49% less.

What's wrong with this picture?

Regarding your mechanic analogy, if the mechanic was good, regardless of his seniority, he would be making the top rate. If he was ineffective or worse, produced damage, he would not be well paid.

What is wrong with paying based on outcomes?
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Because you can't pay teachers based on what employment their students pursue or what the market decides that education is worth in the field chosen. You would be holding teachers responsible for factors entirely beyond their control.
 
Helix said:
yes, but i'd say school funding and class design is more important. the best teacher in the world is going to have a challenge with huge class sizes and mandated instruction techniques no matter how much you pay him or her.

if i started a school tomorrow, here's what i'd do : classes meet every other day for twice as long, with lecture followed by assignments. the teacher would tutor during the assignment section, and lectures would also be put on youtube for later review. max class size of 25.
Click to expand...



What I would do is examine the best outcomes on the planet and examine the methods that produce those outcomes.

I would then design those methods into the standard operating procedures of the teachers.

Following the first go-round, an academic year, I'd examine the outcomes again and try to find correlations to methods and improvements.

Incorporating the most successful best practices into a new methodology, I would re-structure the methods again for the next academic year and continuously strive to improve the outcomes.

I would constantly re-check the outcomes to gauge improvements vs. the previous results from the same group and vs. the intra national and international comparisons.
 
Zariak said:
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?
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You left off other choices.

While pay could be a factor, underpaid teachers will probably on average may not perform as well. But pay just is not the only factors. There are many, many things that can affect a teachers performance.
 
a351 said:
I don't necessarily believe that raises handed out to current teachers would result in enhanced performance, but wage hikes in the field in general would likely do much to lure brighter minds away from more lucrative fields.
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If the brighter mind is also comes with the techniques and personality necessary to connect with the classes they are going to teach. I've had teachers with very bright minds that were very poor teachers.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Because you can't pay teachers based on what employment their students pursue or what the market decides that education is worth in the field chosen. You would be holding teachers responsible for factors entirely beyond their control.
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The systems and the procedures are designed by the educators and the educators administrators who are, in almost all cases, former educators.

If the systems and the procedures do not support the outcomes, who is to blame for the ineffectiveness?

All of the components of our educational system is an incestuous system of pal review and going along to get along. The pay rates continue to increase and the outcomes continue to degrade.
 
At least for K - 12 it has long been known that teachers are not going to break the bank doing their job. I don't understand, knowing this going in, why they then complain that they are not making a lot of money doing their Jobs.

I don't see a connection between money and performance, because the good teachers will do a good job even if paid a small amount, because they are there for the kids. A bad teacher won't be good no matter how much you pay them.

Anybody that has atended public school, knows this to be true.
 
joG said:
Public schools such as in UK English?
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Sorry. I don't live in the UK. I'm from the colonies, the Americas. "All this" used in that context is a common colloquialism in my area of the world.
 
code1211 said:
The systems and the procedures are designed by the educators and the educators administrators who are, in almost all cases, former educators.

If the systems and the procedures do not support the outcomes, who is to blame for the ineffectiveness?

All of the components of our educational system is an incestuous system of pal review and going along to get along. The pay rates continue to increase and the outcomes continue to degrade.
Click to expand...

I'm fine with educators and administrators being held responsible for outcomes -- so long as those outcomes or evaluation criteria are limited to factors within their control.
 
code1211 said:
What I would do is examine the best outcomes on the planet and examine the methods that produce those outcomes.

I would then design those methods into the standard operating procedures of the teachers.

Following the first go-round, an academic year, I'd examine the outcomes again and try to find correlations to methods and improvements.

Incorporating the most successful best practices into a new methodology, I would re-structure the methods again for the next academic year and continuously strive to improve the outcomes.

I would constantly re-check the outcomes to gauge improvements vs. the previous results from the same group and vs. the intra national and international comparisons.
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And since not all students learn the same way, e.g. some have poor memories but extremely good spatial skills, you need to have your correlations matched to student type. Oh gosh, this makes the measuring difficult. (BTW, I'm one with poor rote memory brain but excellent spatial and a few other skills that has resulted in ten patents.
Let me add: Is success for a student being able to think and solve unique new problems or to regurgitate exactly what they were told.
 
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Zariak said:
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?
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I worked in public education for 25 years. One of the major problems is tenure. Once a teacher has tenure ( after 3 yrs) They have to be in serious trouble to be fired, thus you can be a lousy teacher as long as you abide by the rules. This is a big part of the failure in education in the U.S. I sometimes wondered why some people became teachers as it was clear that they didn't particularly like kids! But if you are safe in your job, why not? That being said there are many more dedicated teachers who enjoy teaching and love kids. I don't think salary plays a big part as you can keep moving up the education ladder. Where I worked many high school teachers made very good wages. Accountability and getting rid of tenure are steps in the right direction for education is the U.S. IMO.
 
code1211 said:
When the Wisconsin Government workers were up in arms about the draconian cuts imposed by the governor, it was almost humorous how the math worked out. The average educator in that state in the public schools, not administrators by educator, was earning more than 50K/year.

The people that these folks educated, including themselves, averaged out to an average wage of about 35K/year.

The teachers were educating people to a level that allowed them to earn 35K and were demanding a pay rate 40% higher supported by the workers who were making 40% less.

What's wrong with this picture?

Regarding your mechanic analogy, if the mechanic was good, regardless of his seniority, he would be making the top rate. If he was ineffective or worse, produced damage, he would not be well paid.

What is wrong with paying based on outcomes?
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The thing I'm getting at is you won't get that mechanic to take a job at $8.00 an hour when he can take one for $25.00 an hour. In this way you get quality applicants when you look at their qualifications etc.
 
Bob N said:
The thing I'm getting at is you won't get that mechanic to take a job at $8.00 an hour when he can take one for $25.00 an hour. In this way you get quality applicants when you look at their qualifications etc.
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What if the mechanic has the choice of taking a job at $25.00/hour on the one hand and taking a job that will pay 100/hour due to his extraordinary abilities and produced results on the other?

In either case, if the guy is looking for a job, he will take the job that he can get and then he should look for a better job if he feels he that he should.
 
I stopped reading at "teachers should make 100k".

I'd rather discuss economics than touchy-feely crap and emotional subjectivity.
 
code1211 said:
What if the mechanic has the choice of taking a job at $25.00/hour on the one hand and taking a job that will pay 100/hour due to his extraordinary abilities and produced results on the other?
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Than in my opinion, he should take it and not pursue a job that pays less; this is what I've been discussing all along--people are not going to work for less pay when they can get a job that pays more. Now if for some reason the employer finds that person not acceptable, that employer will not keep paying a good rate of pay when the employer can try someone else. Meanwhile, the 100K brings quality applicants in to the process. :peace
 
Bob N said:
Than in my opinion, he should take it and not pursue a job that pays less; this is what I've been discussing all along--people are not going to work for less pay when they can get a job that pays more. Now if for some reason the employer finds that person not acceptable, that employer will not keep paying a good rate of pay when the employer can try someone else. Meanwhile, the 100K brings quality applicants in to the process. :peace
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Teaching is already a saturated profession with pay as it is. You would not improve the quality by increasing the salary.

If anything, salaries need to be decreased as to weed people out.
 
Gipper said:
I stopped reading at "teachers should make 100k".

I'd rather discuss economics than touchy-feely crap and emotional subjectivity.
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For some reason that made me laugh, Gipper. I don't know why. :2razz: ;) :lol:
 
Gipper said:
Teaching is already a saturated profession with pay as it is. You would not improve the quality by increasing the salary.

If anything, salaries need to be decreased as to weed people out.
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I'm sorry, I disagree. :shrug:
 
Bob N said:
For some reason that made me laugh, Gipper. I don't know why. :2razz: ;) :lol:
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Because it's true?

There is absolutely no logic-based argument as to why teachers should make 100k or even close to that amount. None whatsoever.

It all comes down to liberal "oh won't someone PLEASE think of the children" retardation.
 
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