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Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 45.2%
  • No

    Votes: 34 54.8%

  • Total voters
    62

Zariak

Active member
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
470
Reaction score
183
Location
Wisconsin
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?
 
I don't necessarily believe that raises handed out to current teachers would result in enhanced performance, but wage hikes in the field in general would likely do much to lure brighter minds away from more lucrative fields.
 
The limitations of public sector jobs include the reality that SOMEONE has to pay the bill for employees. As valuable as teachers and other public workers are, they do not generate cashflow so it isnt feasible to pay them an unlimited salary. Nor is it necessary. Teachers get paid decent. Not great, but not bad and there are certainly some tradeoffs. Im married to an English professor and her family has several educators so I see the long hours, the uncompensated time spent doing the job. Its part of it. But salary isnt what makes a good teacher and unfortunately there are FAR TOO MANY teachers that are stealing their paycheck.

Education is such a complex picture. Great teachers can work their butt off in some schools and see minimal results because the education climate is just so very bad. Lack of parent involvement both in the schools and at home is probably the greatest predictor of success in the schools. No salary in the world is going to fix that.

If you want real change and quality education, you have to be prepared to make radical changes. Make school attendance beyond a certain grade a privilege to be earned. Create tech high schools, kick people out that dont belong in school. Lots of changes.
 
Lack of parent involvement both in the schools and at home is probably the greatest predictor of success in the schools. No salary in the world is going to fix that.
I agree with you on that, but one must remember that most likely one is going to see both parents working nowadays--regardless if they're blue collar or white.

Create tech high schools, kick people out that dont belong in school. Lots of changes.
I always thought that tech high schools are in the near future--sometimes I actually wonder why they're not commonplace by now. And there are plenty of kids that go to school just to stand outside and smoke cigarettes. GEDS are in their future. ;)
 
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?

Well, California has proven rather conclusively that high teacher pay does not correlate to quality education. Just as spending per pupil doesn't correlate.

The fix will not come from pay, or quality of classroom, it will come when education removes social justice from it's focus, and returns to Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic.
 
I voted no, but if teacher unions were broke up and all were paid on a performance scale I might have voted yes
 
Teacher pay has to be competitive, or the best minds will go elsewhere.
but, throwing money at education is not going to fix anything. What needs to be done is to de centralize the schools. Close down the Department of Education. Dissolve the attendance boundaries and allow parents to choose the best school just as they choose the best supermarket. Allow each individual school, not the state or federal government, to set standards, and include student behavior in those standards. If the student can't meet those standards, he can flunk out and have to find a school with lower standards.
 
I agree with you on that, but one must remember that most likely one is going to see both parents working nowadays--regardless if they're blue collar or white.

I always thought that tech high schools are in the near future--sometimes I actually wonder why they're not commonplace by now. And there are plenty of kids that go to school just to stand outside and smoke cigarettes. GEDS are in their future. ;)
Both parents in the workplace is not a valid reason for abandoning their kids education and lives. Not being argumentative...just sayin. And I agree about the GED thing...I think we could do everyone a tremendous service by speeding that process along. Reduce class sizes by getting rid of those that dont want to be there. Dont force butts in seats...make it a privilege to stay there.

The thing is...it SOUNDS mean and uncaring, but really its just the opposite.
 
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?

You're right, there is no correlation between teacher pay and teacher quality at public schools. That's because public school teachers are unionized bureaucrats who cannot be incentivized to produce a quality product no matter how much they are paid. Only a private enterprise can truly produce an efficient, high-quality education.
 
I voted no, but if teacher unions were broke up and all were paid on a performance scale I might have voted yes

That would only be half the battle. A government bureaucrat can never be efficient. Education has to be completely privatized.
 
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?

It is hard to say, if there an immediate correlation. If you increase the income of a profession, however, you find the quality of people who enter the profession rises.
 
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?

Before the advent of the Department of Education which has evolved into a Union office for the NEA, the USA ranked near the top in spending per student and test score averages.

Following that and in a pretty well documented progression, the spending has increased over that of the other industrialized countries and the test performance has declined relative to the rest of the world.

It is very supportable that the spending per student is not a corollary to the quality of the education that is taken away by the student. Even domestically, the average parochial school and private school student costs less to educate, but scores higher on the tests that peg the result of the education.

Increasing the cost of anything does not automatically increase the quality of that thing.

You are a victim of liberalism and the resulting mind set. We need to work smarter, not bigger.

As the distance between the spending decision and the decision maker increases, the effectiveness of that decision decreases.

U.S. Students Still Lag Behind Foreign Peers, Schools Make Little Progress In Improving Achievement

U.S. Education Spending & Student Performance vs. The World Infographic | MAT@USC | USC Rossier Online
 
I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?
Zariak: here is what I think of this topic. I would use a system like this or similar:

I believe that it's OK to start teachers at 100K; however, when the student has his/her evaluation--conducted through the standardized testing--the teachers' evaluation should be judged using the same criteria that the students are judged--in other words, just how many students pass that test. If you have a good number pass the test the teachers receives a passing or good evaluation, but if there are a large number of students fail the tests than the teachers should receive a point for percentage of students that failed, compared to passing, to be later reviewed by the administration. When the tests are given again and the students pass, the point is taken away.

If students keep failing the teachers should be disciplined and perhaps terminated if it continues.
 
Well, California has proven rather conclusively that high teacher pay does not correlate to quality education. Just as spending per pupil doesn't correlate.

The fix will not come from pay, or quality of classroom, it will come when education removes social justice from it's focus, and returns to Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic.

:agree: When I was in grade school, we had a mix of all races. We didn't know then that we were supposed to dislike each other because of it, though! We were there to learn, period, and the teacher was the one in charge. As a matter of fact, if we got in trouble at school, we could expect trouble at home from our parents! This current "social justice" is feeding an agenda we can do without, IMO!
 
I don't necessarily believe that raises handed out to current teachers would result in enhanced performance, but wage hikes in the field in general would likely do much to lure brighter minds away from more lucrative fields.



Are you saying that a person who chooses to be an educator simply to get paid will enhance the ability, the empathy, the sympathy and understanding of that person in ways that will improve the educational outcome?

The educational system of the Great Depression gave us Jonas Salk.

The educational system of the Great Society gave us Kathleen Sebelius.

If Jonas Salk was subjected to the increased educational outlays for education as was Sebelius, polio would still be the leading cause of death to pour children.

God help us all now that Sebelius has her boot on our collective throat. How do you treat a sore throat the results from the governmental application of a boot?
 
Before the advent of the Department of Education which has evolved into a Union office for the NEA, the USA ranked near the top in spending per student and test score averages.

Following that and in a pretty well documented progression, the spending has increased over that of the other industrialized countries and the test performance has declined relative to the rest of the world.

It is very supportable that the spending per student is not a corollary to the quality of the education that is taken away by the student. Even domestically, the average parochial school and private school student costs less to educate, but scores higher on the tests that peg the result of the education.

Increasing the cost of anything does not automatically increase the quality of that thing.

You are a victim of liberalism and the resulting mind set. We need to work smarter, not bigger.

As the distance between the spending decision and the decision maker increases, the effectiveness of that decision decreases.

U.S. Students Still Lag Behind Foreign Peers, Schools Make Little Progress In Improving Achievement

U.S. Education Spending & Student Performance vs. The World Infographic | MAT@USC | USC Rossier Online

Okay, I was following you until you decided to turn this into a partisan issue, which it doesn't have to be.

Please provide the evidence that shows that the average parochial/private school student costs less to educate.

Do not dumb my words down.

You cannot have effective doctors if you pay them 32K a year. Their job is too damn important

Educators are just as important, if not, more important than doctors. Isn't it time we raised the standards?
If you want to work "smarter", then we need to start with the people who make our children "smarter."
You wonder why there is litle corollary between spending and education quality as it is, it's because we're not using the money effectively, of course.
How do we use the money effectively? Pay money for better teachers.
 
I agree with you on that, but one must remember that most likely one is going to see both parents working nowadays--regardless if they're blue collar or white.

I always thought that tech high schools are in the near future--sometimes I actually wonder why they're not commonplace by now. And there are plenty of kids that go to school just to stand outside and smoke cigarettes. GEDS are in their future. ;)



I see nothing wrong with segregating the "trouble makers" out of the main stream and allowing those that are at least non disruptive to remain.

Treating the bullies and the disruptive as if they are not hurting everyone else is a recipe for failure and we are baking that failure into the results.

This also will give the teachers a useful tool to use that is not corporal punishment and could easily be conducted like progressive discipline in any union setting to weed out the disaffected with prior notice and ample warning.
 
Both parents in the workplace is not a valid reason for abandoning their kids education and lives. Not being argumentative...just sayin. And I agree about the GED thing...I think we could do everyone a tremendous service by speeding that process along. Reduce class sizes by getting rid of those that dont want to be there. Dont force butts in seats...make it a privilege to stay there.

The thing is...it SOUNDS mean and uncaring, but really its just the opposite.



All of the subsidies for education are based only on butts in the seats.

Your recipe is a penalty to those who would make the policies to guide improvement and the prescription you recommend means they would be cutting their own throats.

That 's our job as citizens.
 
It is hard to say, if there an immediate correlation. If you increase the income of a profession, however, you find the quality of people who enter the profession rises.



That is not correct. All this does in increase the pay of the people who enter the profession.
 
Zariak: here is what I think of this topic. I would use a system like this or similar:

I believe that it's OK to start teachers at 100K; however, when the student has his/her evaluation--conducted through the standardized testing--the teachers' evaluation should be judged using the same criteria that the students are judged--in other words, just how many students pass that test. If you have a good number pass the test the teachers receives a passing or good evaluation, but if there are a large number of students fail the tests than the teachers should receive a point for percentage of students that failed, compared to passing, to be later reviewed by the administration. When the tests are given again and the students pass, the point is taken away.

If students keep failing the teachers should be disciplined and perhaps terminated if it continues.



Why not start them at a very low wage rate and pay them on commission? if the students do well on the tests, they get a raise. If not, they get a cut.

If they only do average, they get to stay where they are.
 
I think that in any environment where there's someone willing to pay more in order to get a higher quality professional, higher salaries are going to be needed in order to get access to better-than-average quality.

Higher salaries do not in and of themselves ensure quality. For that you have to have sound hiring practices and oversight.
 
Why not start them at a very low wage rate and pay them on commission? if the students do well on the tests, they get a raise. If not, they get a cut.

If they only do average, they get to stay where they are.
They won't take the job for low rates. Think about it. If you're a mechanic and you're good at what you do, and there are mechanics out there making $25.00 an hour, are you going to take $8.00 an hour? :shrug:
 
Okay, I was following you until you decided to turn this into a partisan issue, which it doesn't have to be.

Please provide the evidence that shows that the average parochial/private school student costs less to educate.

Do not dumb my words down.

You cannot have effective doctors if you pay them 32K a year. Their job is too damn important

Educators are just as important, if not, more important than doctors. Isn't it time we raised the standards?
If you want to work "smarter", then we need to start with the people who make our children "smarter."
You wonder why there is litle corollary between spending and education quality as it is, it's because we're not using the money effectively, of course.
How do we use the money effectively? Pay money for better teachers.



I live in Indianapolis so that is where I base my understanding of this.

Below are links that reveal that the private parochial School of Roncalli is educating students at a cost of about $5000 less than the average Indianapolis Public School student. The difference might be greater than shown here because the inefficiency and incompetence of the public school system has not allowed the release of the up to date figures while Roncalli is for this academic year. The IPS figures are from 2011.

Stated another way, the Indianapolis public school student costs an additional 40% not paid in the tuition of the Roncalli Students. The test scores at Roncalli are better, there is not a prison look to the school including the razor wire and high fences and the knifings and the other crimes reported from other city schools don't occur.

I am not aware of the political affiliation of Jonas Salk. I assume Sebelius is a Democrat.

Indianapolis Public Schools

Tuition Information » Roncalli High School
 
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