View Poll Results: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

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Thread: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

  1. #141
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    But then that goes back to the child, his or her aptitude and drive, not simply a matter of a teacher's ability.

    I'll give an example. 2 Students. 1 white, the other black. both poor. Both raised by a single mother and both having siblings. Both went to same sub par schools K-12. Same teachers for the most part, same classes. same cultural influences. Both caddied. 1 today is a truck driver(white) and the other a very prominent doctor(black).

    (Affirmative Action had nothing to do with it, and I'm not knocking on truckers only making a true life comparison)

    Did the teacher do this or did the student? Was it's the students drive for success, or the qualifications of the teachers?
    So both of those students are gainfully employed and contributing to society? Neither one is dependent on welfare? They aren't in prison?

    If a teacher can save some of the students born into such a nightmare, then he/she is contributing to society in the hundreds of thousands of dollars every year.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I'm talking about human worth as well as economic. If a teacher can steer ten students away from welfare dependence and toward productive lives, how much does that save in economic terms? A teacher who does that year in and year out is producing far more than we can afford to pay them.

    and that's not even factoring in the richer fuller lives that those students will lead.
    You trivialize the child that way. If he succeeds, it's 90% him and 10% the teacher.

    Also, you think an extra 20K for all teachers offsets the slim chance that you'll get that one teacher out there who would've had the power to sculpt young lives but chose to be an architect instead?

    Last I checked, you can't buy passion or desire. Even teachers will tell you that those of their ilk who do it for the money will almost assuredly burn out.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Please explain how the student's aptitude for learning and/or his or her desire to learn has anything to do with and thereby should be considered the predicate for, compensation of the teacher?
    there can be a measured curve for any group kids especially when the group remains constant (for the most part) for grades 1-12.

    We understand people that don't want to be measured completely.

  4. #144
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So both of those students are gainfully employed and contributing to society? Neither one is dependent on welfare? They aren't in prison?

    If a teacher can save some of the students born into such a nightmare, then he/she is contributing to society in the hundreds of thousands of dollars every year.
    I agree whole-heartedly, the pay for a teacher is dismal in comparison to some of those whose societal contribution is much less. I simply disagree that the teacher's compensation should be tied to student performance.

  5. #145
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    You trivialize the child that way. If he succeeds, it's 90% him and 10% the teacher.

    Also, you think an extra 20K for all teachers offsets the slim chance that you'll get that one teacher out there who would've had the power to sculpt young lives but chose to be an architect instead?

    Last I checked, you can't buy passion or desire. Even teachers will tell you that those of their ilk who do it for the money will almost assuredly burn out.
    When it comes to children of poverty, i think it is more than 10% the teacher, but even if that's so, that's 3 students out of the normal class of 30 every year. That's a lot of productive citizens who won't be collecting welfare or burning up the tax money sitting in prison.

    But, you do have a point: They can't do it just for the money. It has to be a calling, something beyond just pay.

    Which is not to say that they shouldn't be paid more than they are, as they are contributing far more than they are costing.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  6. #146
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So both of those students are gainfully employed and contributing to society? Neither one is dependent on welfare? They aren't in prison?

    If a teacher can save some of the students born into such a nightmare, then he/she is contributing to society in the hundreds of thousands of dollars every year.
    Agreed, but that's near impossible to quantify, especially when we're talking about elementary school students. And it's rarely one teacher, or person that influences those contributions.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    When it comes to children of poverty, i think it is more than 10% the teacher, but even if that's so, that's 3 students out of the normal class of 30 every year. That's a lot of productive citizens who won't be collecting welfare or burning up the tax money sitting in prison.

    But, you do have a point: They can't do it just for the money. It has to be a calling, something beyond just pay.

    Which is not to say that they shouldn't be paid more than they are, as they are contributing far more than they are costing.
    No, I'm not saying that 10% of children will get "touched". I'm saying that if the child succeeds, the teacher should get about 10% of the credit, whereas the child itself should get 90%.

  8. #148
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    No, I'm not saying that 10% of children will get "touched". I'm saying that if the child succeeds, the teacher should get about 10% of the credit, whereas the child itself should get 90%.
    Plus there's the assist factor. Perhaps the teacher only succeeded with this student because someone else in the community loosened the jar first.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Plus there's the assist factor. Perhaps the teacher only succeeded with this student because someone else in the community loosened the jar first.
    That's quite possible. Also, as you suggested, every individual teacher only gets a small window with that specific child. Maybe there are teachers out there that children can say "that's the man who changed my life" of them, but damned if I ever had one. My success is mine; it was not theirs in even the slightest. They were nothing but people who did their jobs as they were supposed to.

    I just get weary of the whole "the children are our future" crap as an excuse to think that every teacher is a living saint. It's really hard to have conversations or debate with them.

    That's why I said I almost didn't come into this thread. I was going to discuss the economics of teaching, involving supply and demand, saturation, duties, requirements...and, of course, I run head-on into the "oh won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!!!!" crowd. It's like trying to debate a religious nut.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    there can be a measured curve for any group kids especially when the group remains constant (for the most part) for grades 1-12.

    We understand people that don't want to be measured completely.
    and when it is self serving, when will those statistics be manipulated? and the determination of progress? Standardized testing? No, I don't think so. The number one problem I see in the education of our youth today is this standardized, homogenized one size fits all pedagogy which is what precisely is the matter with our education system. We don't educate our children, we indoctrinate them. This is truth, we teach them to perform functions, that's all. Those that pass beyond that, they aren't some magical outlier, destined for greatness, the next turn of the evolutionary wheel -- No! They are simply those who happen to be receptive to the current pedagogical construct. The construct which allows for some over-achievement yes, but by far it creates class after class of mediocrity. I will concede that there are some very successful individuals who in spite of themselves --educationally speaking-- have achieved marvelous success, but again, by and large, the education system in America churns out unremarkable graduates bound for fulfilling humdrum tasks.

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