View Poll Results: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

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Thread: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

  1. #91
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I acknowledge and respect your opinion and you point to one of the basic reasons that the average cost per student is lower for Private/Parochial schools. That is overhead.

    A couple of things (and I'm not saying these are good or bad, just pointing out why):

    #1 - It's easier to lower you costs when you can just not accept students and/or kick them out when they cause problems and perform poorly academically. Don't take them or kick them out and let the public school system deal with the problems.

    #2 - A major portion of our budget is transportation (buses, maintenance on the buses, bus drivers, mechanics, and all the support necessary to manage the pickup and delivery of each and every child from the correct location and deliverer them to the correct school). Most pubic schools don't take any responsibility for transportation and it's up to the parents to deliver and pick up their child(ren).

    #3 - Similar to #1, it's easier to show hirer SAT/ACT scores when you can just not accept students and/or kick them out when they cause problems and perform poorly academically. Don't take them or kick them out and let the public school system deal with the problems. Skim the cream of the crop and you have better average test scores.

    #4 - Private and parochial schools are not required to take special education students and therefore don't have that whole cost infrastructure.

    #5 - When you compare one type of organization (private/parochial) that can hand pick their students vs. public schools that are required by law (usually the State Constitution) to accept and be responsible for the education of ALL students (including those rejected by private/parochial) then you have an apples to oranges comparison.



    Take away some of the costs required for Public Schools that private schools don't have (transportation, Spec-Ed, and often extensive sports programs), then determine then compare (a) the cost factor of only top students (to match private school screening), and (b) SAT/ACT scores (to match private schools being able to get rid of poor academic performers which pads their scores) and you have a closer apples to apples comparison.



    >>>>
    I agree, there are huge differences and it was those differences that I was trying to weigh in my mind. I hear all the time people comparing private/christian schools and their costs to that of public education. It seems the comparison is more apples to oranges than peaches to peaches.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    1. No, the schools would not have to accept every student who applies. For one thing, they would have to meet the standards set by the school. For another, if the school were to be full (your example), then the students who apply subsequently would be on a waiting list.
    You didn't say there are no attendance boundaries, you said parents get to choose. Functionally those are very different things.

    What do you mean "they have to meet the standards set by the school" you said the parents get to decide not the schools. If the schools are setting standards, then that's not the parents deciding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    2. No, no attendance boundaries means exactly that. There should be no need to buy a half million dollar house in the right part of town in order to get your kids into a decent school.
    Schools receive the majority of funding through local property taxes, so I pay taxes to send my kids to the school I want them to go to and now you are saying that I can't send my kids to the school I live across the street from? That sucks.



    BTW - Just so I know are you doing away with school bus transportation or will parents be responsible to ensure their children are delivered to school and picked up from school at the proper time? If parents are going to be responsible for transportation, that is a significant cost savings to the schools because they can do away with the whole transportation department and the expensive school buses, bus drivers, scheduling staff, mechanics, etc.. On the other hand if the Public Schools are going to be responsible you can expect a significant increase in transportation costs because now instead of having school boundaries where transportation can pick-up students in a given neighborhood and deliver them to an individual school, you'd then have students sourced to schools from over the whole division. Your transportation expenses in that case would go through the roof.



    >>>>

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I agree, there are huge differences and it was those differences that I was trying to weigh in my mind. I hear all the time people comparing private/christian schools and their costs to that of public education. It seems the comparison is more apples to oranges than peaches to peaches.

    Exactly.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against private/parochial schools. They fill a need in the community and there is no denying they get good results (in general, there are exceptions). But when you compare results between institutions where one has to accept ALL students from various socioeconomic backgrounds, those with behavior and discipline problems, those who (for one reason or another) are not strong academic performers, and students with special needs (both physical, emotional, and developmental) and then compare outcomes to an organization that can skim the cream of the crop.

    One wouldn't expect the same outcomes.



    My wife and I seriously considered private school. I relocated after retiring from the military and we opted instead to buy a house in a good neighborhood with some excellent elementary, middle, and high schools. Instead of spending that money on private schools we invested in college savings plans, our children got a good education and we were able to help out with college to the point where one graduated with $0 debt and the other with only $20,000 in debt (she opted to live in an apartment, so that cost was on her) unlike many graduates facing $50,000, $75,000 or $100,000 in crushing college debt. (BTW - college wasn't a free ride for either, both worked and paid about 1/2 of their normal expenses.)



    >>>>

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    You didn't say there are no attendance boundaries, you said parents get to choose. Functionally those are very different things.

    What do you mean "they have to meet the standards set by the school" you said the parents get to decide not the schools. If the schools are setting standards, then that's not the parents deciding.



    Schools receive the majority of funding through local property taxes, so I pay taxes to send my kids to the school I want them to go to and now you are saying that I can't send my kids to the school I live across the street from? That sucks.



    BTW - Just so I know are you doing away with school bus transportation or will parents be responsible to ensure their children are delivered to school and picked up from school at the proper time? If parents are going to be responsible for transportation, that is a significant cost savings to the schools because they can do away with the whole transportation department and the expensive school buses, bus drivers, scheduling staff, mechanics, etc.. On the other hand if the Public Schools are going to be responsible you can expect a significant increase in transportation costs because now instead of having school boundaries where transportation can pick-up students in a given neighborhood and deliver them to an individual school, you'd then have students sourced to schools from over the whole division. Your transportation expenses in that case would go through the roof.



    >>>>
    Actually, I did say, dissolve all attendance boundaries and let the parents choose the school they want to sends their kids to. Of course, the parents don't hold all of the cards, as the schools have the obligation to set standards for student achievement and behavior and insist that the students live up to them. So, no, the parents can't choose just any school, but only the ones that their kids can qualify for, much as they can choose the college that their kids can get into right now.

    Schools being funded by local property taxes is reality in many states. It is not so in California, not for quite some time. Schools need to be funded state wide in order for the no attendance boundaries to work well, otherwise parents would be confined to the local school district.

    As for buses, if the parents wanted their children to be bused to school, then they would choose a school that offered that service. If other things were more important, then they would see to their own transportation. It would be a matter of choice.
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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Wow, three people. Really, that splains it then. I make about 3 times in the clinical setting I do in Education. If you teach in my profession it is just because you feel a duty to, most of us have families to support and bills to pay, so yea, sometimes only the losers end up there. I teach but it sure aint for the money, nor would I be able to unless I had a real (clinical) job.
    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    "Them that can do, them that can't teach". I myself know three people who went into teaching after age 40 because they failed at everything else.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Exactly.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against private/parochial schools. They fill a need in the community and there is no denying they get good results (in general, there are exceptions). But when you compare results between institutions where one has to accept ALL students from various socioeconomic backgrounds, those with behavior and discipline problems, those who (for one reason or another) are not strong academic performers, and students with special needs (both physical, emotional, and developmental) and then compare outcomes to an organization that can skim the cream of the crop.

    One wouldn't expect the same outcomes.



    My wife and I seriously considered private school. I relocated after retiring from the military and we opted instead to buy a house in a good neighborhood with some excellent elementary, middle, and high schools. Instead of spending that money on private schools we invested in college savings plans, our children got a good education and we were able to help out with college to the point where one graduated with $0 debt and the other with only $20,000 in debt (she opted to live in an apartment, so that cost was on her) unlike many graduates facing $50,000, $75,000 or $100,000 in crushing college debt. (BTW - college wasn't a free ride for either, both worked and paid about 1/2 of their normal expenses.)



    >>>>
    Good for you, when did you retire? I retired in 1986 which seems like eon's ago.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I work in Human Resources for a school system. If you are limiting your remarks to "Elementary Classroom" teacher, ya you are pretty much correct. However there are multiple areas where the profession is not saturated and it can be pretty tough to find qualified candidates including Math, Hard Science (Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc.), and certain types of Special Education teachers.



    >>>>
    I hear you, and I agree. I've always made exceptions to those 3 fields: math, science, and sped. Those do have shortages, and I'm more than willing to raise salaries of teachers for these subjects.

    As to whether the union would allow it, I have no idea. A union is the most anti-meritocratic organization possible.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zariak View Post
    I'm personally disappointed with how much our educators make. IMO, they should be starting at around 100K salaries, with the due education, of course.

    But, there's always the nagging thought in my head that tells me there might not even be any correlation between education quality and teacher pay.

    I think we can all agree that our education system needs fixing. What do you think?
    I think the biggest hindrances to having the highest qualities of education are:

    - The dysfunctional homes many kids come from.

    - An effective government operated monopoly on primary and secondary education. Imagine the quality of grocery stores, housing developments, clothing stores, the consumer electronics industry or anything if it was delivered to the public via a government run monopoly. People accept it because "the way its always been" typically trumps "the best it can be" if that's the only thing they're ever known.

    - Cultural influences that make it easy for kids to veg out watching TV of listening to the latest hip-hop music than educational enrichment. I wish more energy was used coming up with creative ways to make learning fun and more entertainers doing what people like Malaak Rock and Will Smith do, rewarding kids who do well in school with life changing adventures.

    I suppose more money would help too. I'd like to see every student in America with a tablet, e-reader or laptop to replace text books. I'd like to see more students taking some online classes as part of their overall assignments. I'd love to see more virtual classes where some classrooms are replaced with webcam interaction; even allowing every American student to take some classes as foreign exchange students from their own living rooms.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Wow, 17 to 17. So if teachers were paid $5.00 per hour for the days they work the quality of teachers would be the same as paying them a salary of $40,000, about $40 per hour, you would get the same quality teachers. Half of us say so. Hummm.

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    Re: Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    No doubt religion would have to be taught separately and funded by the church, much like kids who go to Catechism or seminary do currently.

    We had a charter school closed in this area as they were teaching Islam in a publicly funded school. That sort of thing is still a violation of the First Amendment, but all they have to do is have one more period before or after regular classes, and pay for it from the church funds and it's all legal.


    That would be interesting to see how this separation would impact Benedictine Nuns or Franciscan Priests teaching classes.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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