View Poll Results: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

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  • Economic Detriment Argument

    18 36.00%
  • Moral Argument

    10 20.00%
  • Hardship Argument

    9 18.00%
  • I Said So Argument

    1 2.00%
  • Waste Encouragement Argument

    10 20.00%
  • I don't agree with any of these arguments.

    21 42.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

  1. #11
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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    If a person making $15,000 a year were asked to pay 33% of his income in taxes they would take home only 10,000, putting them well under the poverty line. They could not afford a mortgage, a car or anything but the basest level of subsistence goods.
    If a person making $500,000 is asked to pay 33% of their income in taxes they will take home about $400,000 because their tax lawyers will find loopholes, hedge funds, off shore tax havens, tax dodge investments and deductions. They will still live in a mansion drive a luxury car and never know what it means to not have the basic necessities of life, even if they did have to pay $166,000.
    A flat tax sounds fine until we look at the economic impact it would have on real people in a real economy.
    There is a remedy for this already in place. It is called the Earned Income Credit. There could still be a flat tax. We would just have to increase the Earned Income Credit to the poorer of citizens. It seems like a wash but a flat tax let's us feel like we are all on the same team instead of turning on each other like we currently do. The rich hate the poor. The poor hate the rich. Single people hate married people. Married people hate single people. People with kids hate people without kids. People without kids hate people with kids. The list goes on and on. A flat tax would put us all on the same playing field. It would be a very good exercise in uniting our nation. Uniting our country should be more important than tax reform, health care, immigration, abortion, oil exploration or education. A flat tax would take us closer in that direction. All the spending could stay the same but let all citizens be involved in making our government function. It would be a great step in a better direction.

    vasuderatorrent

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The OP is a good example of a "push poll" for not increasing taxes. For each of the OPs listed rational for not increasing taxes there is missing is a counter rational for increasing taxes. The poll is invalid and I voted for the last option on that basis.
    This most certainly was not a push poll or I would have not included the last option. I couldn't restrict the poll for only the people who support lower taxes. I knew there would be opponents. What would you have listed for a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th option?

    Besides, just because it's your favorite argument doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with it. It might be your favorite for comedic purposes or because of it's scholarship. It doesn't mean you agree.

    vasuderatorrent

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The OP is a good example of a "push poll" for not increasing taxes. For each of the OPs listed rational for not increasing taxes there is missing is a counter rational for increasing taxes. The poll is invalid and I voted for the last option on that basis.
    I do have a counter argument to the Moral Argument that drives people crazy. I just don't have a fancy name for it. I still don't see how it would have fit into this poll.

    vasuderatorrent

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    There is a remedy for this already in place. It is called the Earned Income Credit. There could still be a flat tax. We would just have to increase the Earned Income Credit to the poorer of citizens. It seems like a wash but a flat tax let's us feel like we are all on the same team instead of turning on each other like we currently do. The rich hate the poor. The poor hate the rich. Single people hate married people. Married people hate single people. People with kids hate people without kids. People without kids hate people with kids. The list goes on and on. A flat tax would put us all on the same playing field. It would be a very good exercise in uniting our nation. Uniting our country should be more important than tax reform, health care, immigration, abortion, oil exploration or education. A flat tax would take us closer in that direction. All the spending could stay the same but let all citizens be involved in making our government function. It would be a great step in a better direction.

    vasuderatorrent
    So a flat tax is fine except that we need to make it progressive to work? Got it.
    I don't believe there is nearly as much hate in the hearts of the American people as you like to pretend there is.
    The concept of a flat tax has always been a pipe dream of wealthy people.
    It'll never happen.
    Last edited by Buck Ewer; 10-27-13 at 04:19 AM.

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    So a flat tax is fine except that we need to make it progressive to work? Got it.
    I don't believe there is nearly as much hate in the hearts of the American people as you like to pretend there is.
    The concept of a flat tax has always been a pipe dream of wealthy people.
    It'll never happen.
    I am a person that pays no taxes. I don't like that.

    vasuderatorrent

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    This most certainly was not a push poll or I would have not included the last option. I couldn't restrict the poll for only the people who support lower taxes. I knew there would be opponents. What would you have listed for a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th option?

    Besides, just because it's your favorite argument doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with it. It might be your favorite for comedic purposes or because of it's scholarship. It doesn't mean you agree.

    vasuderatorrent

    It's not what you say, its how you say it....or so I"ve been told. Phrasing poll questions is key to getting the responses that support a theory, or cause, or issue, or whatever. Objectivity is like a muscle that needs to be exercised or it atrophies....use it or lose it. It's not easy to be consistently objective....so I give you credit for trying.

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It's not what you say, its how you say it....or so I"ve been told. Phrasing poll questions is key to getting the responses that support a theory, or cause, or issue, or whatever. Objectivity is like a muscle that needs to be exercised or it atrophies....use it or lose it. It's not easy to be consistently objective....so I give you credit for trying.
    Lucky for me. I'm not a professional. That sounds like a lot of work.

    vasuderatorrent

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The OP is a good example of a "push poll" for not increasing taxes. For each of the OPs listed rational for not increasing taxes there is missing is a counter rational for increasing taxes. The poll is invalid and I voted for the last option on that basis.
    This is not a push poll but my other poll was intentionally a push poll. Have you seen it?

    vasuderatorrent

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...ed-states.html

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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    If a person making $15,000 a year were asked to pay 33% of his income in taxes they would take home only 10,000, putting them well under the poverty line. They could not afford a mortgage, a car or anything but the basest level of subsistence goods.
    If a person making $500,000 is asked to pay 33% of their income in taxes they will take home about $400,000 because their tax lawyers will find loopholes, hedge funds, off shore tax havens, tax dodge investments and deductions. They will still live in a mansion drive a luxury car and never know what it means to not have the basic necessities of life, even if they did have to pay $166,000.
    A flat tax sounds fine until we look at the economic impact it would have on real people in a real economy.
    Yes, this is what I was expecting. To start with it, the idea laid out here abandons the very idea that citizens own valuation of commodities is important and simply assumes it for themselves. It simply assumes that the value of the product offered to the rich man, who retains more after paying his personal outgoing, will desire more public expenditure than the poor man, due to the fact that he will have higher surplus of goods to use for other purposes. They have no way to determine what the individual man values are to be used to figure this out, except his total amount of income, as I have shown. If we are to look at the political leans of the rich you would see the full gambit of political thought are represented, and in fact, the two leading categorical groups are liberals and libertarians, which as you might be aware, do not desire the same amount of public expenditure, as is what was assumed. It should be apparent that the only way to truly determine the value of the commodity is through voluntary exchange, not through assumptions based on income and of personal value of public expenditures based on it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 10-27-13 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #20
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    Re: What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    What is your favorite argument against higher taxes?

    Below is a list of six popular arguments against the implementation of higher taxes:

    Economic Detriment Argument
    In addition to that, there's a simple consideration of effectiveness: after certain level, taxes become counter-productive, as the source of revenue. They inhibit economic activity to the point where overall take in the next round is lower, not higher. Of course, the break point is very difficult to establish - we just know that it exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    Moral Argument The reason tax increases make you feel bad is because taxes are bad. You should trust your gut.
    Yes, but it has little to do with gut feelings, especially for libertarians. Taxes are "bad" because they are extracted by coercive methods. The fact that we rely on coercion for funding many necessary functions in our society at this point in history should not be viewed as an excuse to suspend moral judgment: we have relied on forcible military draft recently, and on outright slavery not that long ago.

    Of course, not all taxes carry the same "negative moral charge". Sales taxes leave more room for freedom of choice than income tax, and gasoline tax can be viewed as a user fee. Perhaps showing the way for the reforms leading toward "moral improvement".

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    Hardship Argument
    This argument is similar to the economic detriment argument but implies that a tax increase forces citizens to forego basic necessities in order to pay their taxes. This is the weakest argument against tax increases but the most commonly used.
    It is the weakest argument in general, but it becomes much stronger in particular instances. The Social Security "contribution" is typically the largest tax paid by the working poor (and the other half of it is paid by employers, suppressing job growth). Meanwhile, it is exactly the working poor who are most likely to die before the age of eligibility and get cheated by the system.

    All the reasons are valid, hard to pick the favorite. The question is, of course, how to balance the necessity of substantial revenues with the moral and practical imperative to push toward lower and less offensive taxes. Especially in the era when ballooning national debt poses an existential threat.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 10-27-13 at 05:29 AM.

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