View Poll Results: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

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    20 20.41%
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    52 53.06%
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Thread: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Mike Turzai - the republican legislative leader from Pennsylvania who rammed through a law like this - came right out and said in no uncertain terms that the law would deliver his state to Romney in the 2012 presidential election.

    Come on people - this is beyond dispute with that admission.
    He did say that, but his public rationale (this doesn't account for private rationale, mind you) was the play-up of the idea that Democrats need cheaters to win.
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    He did say that, but his public rationale (this doesn't account for private rationale, mind you) was the play-up of the idea that Democrats need cheaters to win.
    So he publicly farted and tried to cover it up with air freshener. got it.
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So he publicly farted and tried to cover it up with air freshener. got it.
    It's something you have to address, because God knows we hear it all the time from concerned members of the GOP. I don't buy into it at all (in fact, it reminds me immensely of the whining Democrats did after 2000), but that qualification is still significant.

    I think the design motivations are partisan, but the public rhetoric relies on ghost stories.
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    It's something you have to address, because God knows we hear it all the time from concerned members of the GOP. I don't buy into it at all (in fact, it reminds me immensely of the whining Democrats did after 2000), but that qualification is still significant.

    I think the design motivations are partisan, but the public rhetoric relies on ghost stories.
    there are times when the real intent of implementing voter i.d laws are disclosed by the elected officials who implemented them.

    case in point:

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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I agree with your first part. For someone that currently doesn't own a usable ID card asking them to go out and pay for one is basically a poll tax. It's a card they only need to vote and for no other reason.
    Yep. Offer a "Government ID" card that serves no purpose other than to be a government endorsed picture ID. You can simply utilize the same infastructure you already have that processes such things with regard to the DMV. I imagine the percentage of the legal population who do not have drivers licenses are rather low, so the cost would probably not be outrageous. And because it's for no purpose other than identification, it could even potentially have a longer expiration date then something like a driver's licenses.

    As for the second part...so the default assumption is that massive fraud occurs without proof and we should pass laws in order to stop something that we assume to be true?
    Nope, I'm not stating that my default assumption is that massive fraud occurs. I'm simply suggesting that I'm not massively convinced that fraud is exceedingly minimal either based on attempts to determine fraud in a system that seems rather lack luster in terms of measurable ways to actually "prove" fraud is occuring. I think there is a capacity for fraud to occur, I think there's a legitimate and important state interest to take measures to assure the integrity of the electoral process, and as such I think its reasonable to potentially look at laws that can help the latter.

    I do think the financial impact of those laws, and the potential impact on legally voting individuals, absolutely are factors that should be looked into and weighed when determining whether or not to push/support such laws. I think a legitimate argument against these laws can be made based on both factors. I simply don't believe the measures that have been done in terms of "provable" voter fraud are sound enough for the notion of "Voter fraud is a miniscule, nearly nonexistant problem" to be a worth while argument against doing it.

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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Actually it shows why Pew says the System is flawed as it is.....which means they are still on the lists.

    Which then still leaves that question over Early voting which one has to have an ID and those that vote on the same day.....and some sort of excuse why on the day when one votes they don't need the ID. ......doesn't it?
    Of course the system is flawed, its been left up to the states to make the rules. When you leave a governing body that doesn't want to govern to make up the rules they will fail in doing so. Regardless of the government type in charge.

    Early voting would require an ID as you are voting outside the normal time permits, that would easily allow for extra verification because you want to take advantage of something the state offers. I see no problems with that, but not everyone can vote early thus why we have a day set aside for it and employers must allow their employees to be able to get the polls, which (I think its a 2hr block of time aside from what they want) doesn't allow for the extra verification time while still allowing the maximum number of people to vote. On top of the fact a lot of the photo ID's are requiring more strict verification to get them.

    A good example is in South Dakota, you need to have two utility bills in your name, birth certificate and SSN card in order to get a photo ID. While the SSN card and BC are pretty easy to get not everyone has two utility bills in that state as they don't allow phone bills to count as address verification. (Since you don't have to live at the address to get a phone bills sent there) Not all apt or condo's have the required utilities for people to have in their name.

    A lot of rural states with limited cities have the same requirements and disenfranchising voters is a stupid idea by requiring ID's that not everyone is able to get.
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  7. #57
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    The only valid objection against introducing voter ID requirement I can imagine is a combination of: (a) electoral fraud is not a significant problem, and (b) the measure will cost a lot of money (the IDs are provided to those who doesn't have them free of charge, naturally, to avoid a de facto poll tax situation).
    It also costs money to obtain the documents necessary to get an ID. Replacing a lost birth certificate costs money. Replacing a lost SS card costs money. Getting a passport costs money. So, the government would also have to pick up the tab for verifying everyone's identity to get them the ID as well.

    My main objection to the ID laws is how they're carried out. No one who shows up to vote should be turned away. If there is a question as to the validity of the vote, by all means investigate and verify, and discard the vote if it is cast illegally and prosecute to the full extent of the law. But no one should ever be sent home because they are missing the proper piece of paper to vote. Or, in reality, because we insist on everyone voting on a single Tuesday, sent back to work where they will be until after the polls close and they are only given enough time off to go attempt to vote once. No one should be turned away.

    The reality is that a handful of illegal votes is almost never going to change the outcome of an election, and there is no evidence to suggest that illegal voting is anything more than a rare and isolated problem. By all means, form a commission to study the problem. Find out if there really is a widespread problem with our elections. Any patriotic American who genuinely believes in democratic elections will support fixing that problem and ensuring accuracy in our elections. I certainly would. But the implementation of voter ID laws do not do that. They make our elections less accurate by keeping more people from voting. It is more American to let a few people cheat the system and vote illegally than it is to stop even one American citizen from casting their lawful vote. It's the same mindset behind innocent until proven guilty. Until there is reason to suspect that a vote is illegal, it must be treated as lawful.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'm curious to know how many people don't have a valid photo identification. How does one open a bank account without a valid I.D.? It can't be done. Cash a check at a currency exchange? At a bank? It can't be done. Sign up for welfare? God!! I hope! it can't be done. Buy a house? Can't be done. Open a charge account? Can't be done. Sign up for Social Security? Can't be done.

    Who are these people who don't have photo identification? And how are they living their lives?
    They are living lifestyles that are very different from the middle class one that you enjoy. Living comfortably requires ID. Scraping by does not. The people we're talking about don't have bank accounts, cash their paychecks at corner stores that don't ask for ID, and don't buy houses. They probably aren't signed up for SS, either. I don't know if signing up for aid programs require ID. I doubt it, since you sign up by mail. You sign your name under penalty of perjury on the bottom of the form. That's plenty.

    For my first year in DC, I only ever had to show my ID while doing things related to my study of law. Plus I carried my license on me while I drove. So, as long as I didn't drive or go to law school, I could have lived without ID. Meanwhile, I have never in my life had to show ID during the process of getting a job. I understand that your life involves ID a lot, but many people do not live your life. Your experience is not universal. Please try to understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    THAT is the question. As I have mentioned earlier.

    The problem is, we have no way of knowing, until we have the verification system in place.

    Some Democrats claim that there's virtually no fraud, because very few instances are documented. But isn't it a bit like saying that there's no crime in Town X, because no arrests are being made there - while there's no police in Town X?
    We absolutely have ways of knowing. We have registrations. And even without showing ID, people aren't voting anonymously. You tell them who you are and they cross you off the list. If someone else shows up later and uses your name, they notice. And they make sure you aren't on the list at multiple polling locations. It is wholly inaccurate to suggest that we can't tell if people are who they say they are when they show up to vote if we don't check their ID and then stop them from voting if it doesn't check out. That's what we register for. When you get to the poll, they have already verified you. There very much are police in Town X. They just aren't walking the beat in plain sight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    it's their social duty to get an ID.
    No, it's not. And you don't have the right to make it one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Every single voter ID proposal includes free-of-charge issuance of the IDs. Otherwise, it would constitute a poll tax. Unconstitutional.
    That is simply not true. Many voter ID laws passed and on the books in lots of states do not provide for free IDs to anyone. And, as we have discussed, the documentation required to get one is often not free. Ergo, still a poll tax.
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    These laws just so happen to appear right after VRA is stuck down. Interesting.
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    IThey are living lifestyles that are very different from the middle class one that you enjoy. Living comfortably requires ID. Scraping by does not. The people we're talking about don't have bank accounts, cash their paychecks at corner stores that don't ask for ID, and don't buy houses. They probably aren't signed up for SS, either. I don't know if signing up for aid programs require ID. I doubt it, since you sign up by mail. You sign your name under penalty of perjury on the bottom of the form. That's plenty.
    This is where your argument goes inaccurate and breaks. I've been there, lived the under the radar life and you cannot do it without ID at some point. The Mom & Pop corner store is not going to cash your check without ID. Why? Because it's not just your ID that counts but the check issuer as well. However, with your ID they can file a police report and legally do the write off at worst and it's then all on you. If you're day labor your checks will not all be from the same source. That's why there are check cashing places and they require ID even if they know you and your cousins and the issuer.

    Not to mention the absolute host of other things that require ID even for those living day to day. ANY sort of local, state or federal government assistance requires ID as does cashing those checks. If you don't have a fixed address and need to pick up your food stamps and such at the office - requires ID.

    I don't believe you can show a state that doesn't offer a state photo ID gratis for those who meet the poverty standard. I know all the states out West do and I'm fairly sure every state does.

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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynaeve Meara View Post
    Of course the system is flawed, its been left up to the states to make the rules. When you leave a governing body that doesn't want to govern to make up the rules they will fail in doing so. Regardless of the government type in charge.

    Early voting would require an ID as you are voting outside the normal time permits, that would easily allow for extra verification because you want to take advantage of something the state offers. I see no problems with that, but not everyone can vote early thus why we have a day set aside for it and employers must allow their employees to be able to get the polls, which (I think its a 2hr block of time aside from what they want) doesn't allow for the extra verification time while still allowing the maximum number of people to vote. On top of the fact a lot of the photo ID's are requiring more strict verification to get them.

    A good example is in South Dakota, you need to have two utility bills in your name, birth certificate and SSN card in order to get a photo ID. While the SSN card and BC are pretty easy to get not everyone has two utility bills in that state as they don't allow phone bills to count as address verification. (Since you don't have to live at the address to get a phone bills sent there) Not all apt or condo's have the required utilities for people to have in their name.

    A lot of rural states with limited cities have the same requirements and disenfranchising voters is a stupid idea by requiring ID's that not everyone is able to get.
    Well, like I said both sides shouldn't be trying to prevent Citizens from voting. But you can see how it is played here in Chicago. Kinda like who has to run for Jesse Jackson juniors seat. Wherein it just can't be any one that's from the district.

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