View Poll Results: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

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  • YES!

    20 20.41%
  • NO!

    52 53.06%
  • It can be!

    24 24.49%
  • Other. Please explain.

    2 2.04%
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Thread: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

  1. #101
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I don't own a car. I have a driver's license - renting is a necessity sometimes for me, and a passport. But many Americans do not drive at all and do not travel much.
    Well it's not that hard to get a passport honestly it isn't or to get some other form of I.D.. The list of I.D. accepted here to vote is a rather long list.

  2. #102
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

    Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

    Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

    "On May 6, 2008, 12 fraudulent voters, dressed as nuns, attempted to cast ballots in the presidential primary in Indiana.Luckilyof them were caught, stopped cold by Indiana's new voter photo ID law. The law had been found to be constitutional by Federal Judge Richard Posner of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
    It turns out the nuns that Posner's ruling turned away were, in fact, nuns. All the sisters had photo driver's licenses, but they had expired (the licenses, not the nuns). The Sisters of the Holy Cross, had, mercifully, given up driving (they were pushing 90 years of age.)
    It was a cute story that ran nationwide. What wasn't so cute, and ran nowhere in the US press, was that 72,000 black voters were blocked at the polls by this Posner-blessed photo ID law."
    "
    In his newly released autobiography, the aging Posner, hearing the wings of mortality and the gavel of Judgment Day coming down, admits that he was stone cold wrong. Posner now concedes that that the voter ID rule was a Republican partisan ploy in intent and viciously racist in practice.
    Posner, seeking forgiveness, says it wasn't his fault. He wasn't "really given strong indications that requiring additional voter identification would actually disfranchise people [who are] entitled to vote.""

    Are these really Jim Crow laws?

    Is this a voter disenfranchisement scheme?

    Are these type laws partisan?

    Excepting graveyards voting for LBJ in the 1960s, has this been a problem?

    How many cases of voter fraud have been prosecuted in your neighborhood?
    There have been almost NO cases of voter fraud. I don't believe your story from an article in a tea party site. Not exactly a news organization.

    Yes, requiring voter ID is partisan, a form of disenfranchisement, and discriminatory. Most people have voter IDs. But for those who don't, it can be a hardship to get one.

    Let's use me, for instance. I have a photo ID. But I don't have a certified copy of my birth certificiate (I have the ORIGINAL and ancient microfiche copy of it, but that will not be accepted by the govt as valid). I checked with my birth state's agency to see how long it would take me to get one, and how much it would cost. To get one within a month, it would cost about $50. If I were poor (and I used to be), I wouldn't be able to pay that. The cheaper way is by snail mail. The govt site said that would take 3 to 4 months and cost about $20 or so dollars. When I was poor, I maybe could've scraped together $20, but maybe not (I had about $5 of expendable income, after paying for minimum food, rent, and car note for my used car, and gas).

    There is no widespread voter fraud going on. We have several instances of Republic politicians stating outright that the purpose of the new laws is to get Republicans voted and disenfranchise Democratic Party voters.

    Even if it seems reasonable to you, there is really no reason for it, without a showing of widespread voter fraud. And there isn't any, and has never been.

    I have my own glitches here in TX. A catch-22 of sorts. The STATE put my maiden name as my middle name on my driver's license. The state law requires that, so that's what the STATE did. My voter registration has my birth middle name. I may not be allowed to vote here in TX without the two matching, EVEN THOUGH THE STATE CAUSED THE DISCREPANCY. There was a female District Judge here in TX, on tv, explaining that she was not allowed to vote regularly for this very reason. She was required to sign an affidavit and file a provisional ballot. Even though she had been voting in that precinct for decades, had lived in the same address for decades, the address for both registration & DL was the same, she could show various forms of ID with both middle name and maiden name.

    Women disproportionately vote Democratic, and the Tea Party is big in Texas. It is disenfranchisement, pure and simple. It's still in the court system, so hopefully this will be struck down, OR the state's requirement to use maiden name on driver's license will be struck down.

    The Tea Partiers are so unethical and mean spirited, aren't they? One thing you can say about the Democratic Party, whatever that party's problems, is that you won't catch them disenfranchising anyone, even Republicans.

  3. #103
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    We are a federalist system, for one.
    Well that never stopped Trudeau.

  4. #104
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    I do not understand why AMericans cannot obtain any of these:

    Identity Cards

    Driver's Licence
    Health Card
    Canadian Passport
    Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (Citizenship Card)
    Birth Certificate
    Certificate of Indian Status (Status Card)
    Social Insurance Number Card
    Old Age Security Card
    Student ID Card
    Provincial/Territorial Identification Card
    Liquor Identification Card
    Hospital/Medical Clinic Card
    Credit/Debit Card
    Employee Card
    Public Transportation Card
    Library Card
    Canadian Forces Identity Card
    Veterans Affairs Canada Health Card
    Canadian Blood Services/Héma-Québec Card
    CNIB ID Card
    Firearm Possession and Acquisition Licence or Possession Only Licence
    Fishing, Trapping or Hunting Licence
    Outdoors or Wildlife Card/Licence
    Hospital bracelet worn by residents of long-term care facilities
    Parolee Identification Card

    Original documents
    (with name and address)

    Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water)
    Bank/Credit Card Statement
    Vehicle Ownership/Insurance
    Correspondence issued by a school, college or university
    Statement of Government Benefits (employment insurance, old age security, social assistance, disability support or child tax benefit)
    Attestation of Residence issued by the responsible authority of a First Nations band or reserve
    Government Cheque or Cheque Stub
    Pension Plan Statement of Benefits, Contributions or Participation
    Residential Lease/Mortgage Statement
    Income/Property Tax Assessment Notice
    Insurance Policy
    Letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
    One of the following, issued by the responsible authority of a shelter, soup kitchen, student/senior residence, or long-term care facility: Attestation of Residence, Letter of Stay, Admission Form or Statement of Benefits

    Note: You need one form the identity card category and one form the original document category.

    Seriously how hard is it to get a library card? Though you can avoid all of this by having a health card or provincial ID which have photos.

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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    You are kidding right? If I dont have my papers, am I not an American?
    If you can't prove you're an American, you shouldn't be able to engage in the activities that require you to be an American.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    When you hear someone say "Let's see your papers." what is the first thing that comes into your mind?
    They're an idiot? Or a liberal. Same thing, really.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #107
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    I am all for having an ID to vote, but if I forget mine in my office desk I should still be allowed to vote. If I lie about it arrest me and charge me with a felony. The default should be to allow people to vote. There is almost no fraud anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If you can't prove you're an American, you shouldn't be able to engage in the activities that require you to be an American.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    I am all for having an ID to vote, but if I forget mine in my office desk I should still be allowed to vote. If I lie about it arrest me and charge me with a felony. The default should be to allow people to vote. There is almost no fraud anyway.
    Why should you be allowed to do something because you are irresponsible? You can go back and get it. You can just be responsible in the first place. Why do you think you get special treatment because you're irresponsible?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #109
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That's kind of my point Boo...

    I imagine it's reasonable to suggest Fraud is happening to some degree, . The human condition suggests there will always be someone attempting to beat any system that exists. And even now there has at least been occasional legitimate cases. But in a more over arching notion, you're right that there's a big question of how much and what's it's impact.

    In that regard, I can't honestly answer. It could be that the amount of Fraud is ridiculously miniscule and entirely insignificant. Or it could be a sizable portion that could have an impact. Or it could be somewhere in between.

    Your comment about proof, and measurable numbers, speaks to my issue though. Essentially, as the laws and methods largely stand now, I don't think there are a lot of very efficient and sure fire ways to absolutely "prove" whether fraud is happening or not. Essentially, the way the system is currently set up, "proving" fraud is extremely difficult. As such, the lack of evidence of substantial fraud at the moment doesn't necessarily convince me or prove to me that fraud simply does not exist or does not exist in any meaningful way. It simply means that it doesn't exist in such a way that can be unquestionably proven under the current system.

    To give you an analogy in regards to what I'm saying (though not a direct analogy to this specific situation)....

    Say the only way I can "prove" something was stolen is to physically see a person gain possession and remove the item. Then say that I'm sat in front of a brick wall, with a bunch of large diamonds placed behind it. I see two people come up to the wall, disappear behind it, then reappear on the other side with a bag that has an approximately large diamond sized object in it.

    Under the current criteria I'm operating under in terms of "proving" something, I can not "prove" that they stole the diamond. If I told someone we should take down that wall so I could see where the Diamonds are sitting to prevent theft, a person could accurately say "Why? There's no proven diamond thefts that are occuring". Technically, they're right...there's no proven diamond thefts occuring because the current structure of the rules make it so that it can't be proven. However, the fact it can't be proven under the given circumstances doesn't necessarily prove that it isn't happening.

    -----------

    What I'm basically saying Boo is that you're right...we can't prove that voter fraud is happening at a significant level. I'm simply suggesting that those who claim there's "proof" that it's happening at an insiginificant level are not believable or credible in my opinion, because I don't believe the current system makes definitive "proof" of such far too difficult to obtain for it to be a meaningful statement to base a decision on either way.
    If something is stolen, I can prove it was there, and now it isn't. That will show me it is happening. If the Diamonds are gone, I know it was stolen, even if I can't say the stole it.

    Most things are measurable. I think this is as well. We certainly do catch some, very few, and it is reasonable to suggest if we can catch them, likely we can catch others. I should be able to show ballots that were counted that are not valid. That would show the problem. I also suggest that we can know this if we really want to know it.

    I would spend more time here, but I am really late for my next meeting. I'll try to spend more time on your answer.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #110
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    Re: Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    I am all for having an ID to vote, but if I forget mine in my office desk I should still be allowed to vote. If I lie about it arrest me and charge me with a felony. The default should be to allow people to vote. There is almost no fraud anyway.
    Sure as long as your thumbprint is taken when you register and if you have no ID, you get printed and a provisional ballot that does not count unless the computer says your thumbprint matches. Errors go in favor of burning your ballot.

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