View Poll Results: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

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  • Society should mention race other than the human race because its proably a use of the race card.

    2 7.69%
  • If racism exists in 2013, expose it in order to correct it seeking to make society better.

    19 73.08%
  • Sorry, I don't have a dog in that fight. No position either way.

    5 19.23%
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Thread: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

  1. #51
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Why is it either-or?
    Shouldn't we both reject cynical "race card" manipulations and resist racism whenever it rears its ugly head?
    Sadly, I've never found it to be that easy. My experience is some condemn ANY and ALL mentions of race as using the race card or what I call "using the race card card."

    For me when stupid false claims actually used its so ridiculous I typically ignore it or point out that its the false claims of racism that cause true problems to get thrown out with the real problems, save the more horrific things.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  2. #52
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    I think race baiting is extreme and destructive racism.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    I am curious.

    In the multiyear long fascination with Obama's birth certificate....does anyone see racism or using the race card with the discussion?

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    I am curious.

    In the multiyear long fascination with Obama's birth certificate....does anyone see racism or using the race card with the discussion?
    Because its unprecedented in American history that a national campaign was waged disputing the citizenship of a sitting POTUS that was so effective people believed it and coupled with the history of the Jim Crow grandfather clause where black voters were required to submit documentation that their grandfathers were voters shortly after slavery had ended, many blacks felt there was an unspoken racial component. I personally think for most birthers it was not a race issue but rather they honestly had been unduly influenced by aggressive and effective propaganda tactics employed by people whom they trusted.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Because its unprecedented in American history that a national campaign was waged disputing the citizenship of a sitting POTUS that was so effective people believed it and coupled with the history of the Jim Crow grandfather clause where black voters were required to submit documentation that their grandfathers were voters shortly after slavery had ended, many blacks felt there was an unspoken racial component. I personally think for most birthers it was not a race issue but rather they honestly had been unduly influenced by aggressive and effective propaganda tactics employed by people whom they trusted.
    So do you think the people who influenced the birthers "the propagandists" were racist or just politically motivated assholes that will do anything do get their way?

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Because its unprecedented in American history that a national campaign was waged disputing the citizenship of a sitting POTUS that was so effective people believed it and coupled with the history of the Jim Crow grandfather clause where black voters were required to submit documentation that their grandfathers were voters shortly after slavery had ended, many blacks felt there was an unspoken racial component. I personally think for most birthers it was not a race issue but rather they honestly had been unduly influenced by aggressive and effective propaganda tactics employed by people whom they trusted.
    That's generally my take on it.

    Were some people motivated by racism? Absolutely.

    Were some people motivated by other reasons, and then went down that path because of racism? Absolutely.

    But I think by and large, the base motivation of the birther movement that was most wide spread was political in nature...not racial. Every president tends to have the opposition latch onto SOME issue that they use to try and delegitimize and attack. While there were obviously some within that group who went bought in because of dislike of black people, I would wager most bought in because of a dislike for Democrats.

    I think the argument for where race played a larger factor was the method, or the substance, used to launch the attacks. Or put another way...I think race played a bigger roll in using the "birth certificate" as the topic of attack than it did in the existance of an attack in the first place.

    However, even then, I think a lot of factors went into it. For some, it was a racial component. For others it was more of a xenophobic notion of someone "not from here" and "foreign". For others it was a religious fears and issues that caused them to buy in. While it's true that Barack Obama's race is unique amongst Presidents, those who seek to see Racism everywhere often fail to notice other unique aspects of him that helped play into the crafting of the "birther" movement as a potential attack.

    No President in recent memory spent near half a decade of their lives living outside of the country. No president in recent memory attended a school predominantly populated by follows of a religion other than Judaism or Christianity, nor included teachings about said religion. No president in recent memory had a parent who was a follower of a religion other than Judaism or Christianity. No President in recent memory had a name which was no where to be found on the list top 200 child names of that decade.

    All of those things, along with race, helped to create a situation where such a narriative could be crafted and created to plant enough doubt in the minds of those with a basline motivation (political) to want to believe regardless of what their "trigger" point may be (race, xenophobia, religion, "otherness", etc). I would wager if the Democratic President was white and named Jacques François, had lived in France for nearly 5 years, and had the same mild religious ties in the background as Obama had that we would've seen something similar develop...albiet at a slightly lower verocity because the race factor wouldn't be another layer added on top of it.

    Why do candidates often attempt to seem like a guy "you could have a beer with?" Why is it that all other things being equal between two candidates, some Christians would vote for the Christian over the Jew/Athiest/Muslim? Or the minority would voet for the Minority over the non minority candidate? Or the small business owner would vote for a guy who grew up working his way up as opposed to a guy born into a well off family? It's because people want a politician they feel can relate to the struggles and issues facing them, and seeing things that are "familiar" or similar to ones self often imparts that impression.

    This is a bit long winded but I guess what I'm saying is in many ways I agree with you. I understand fully why many black voters FELT that it was largely rooted in racism. I think there are people within the population of birthers whose participation is influenced by the Presidents race to varying degrees, and I do think there are some out and out racist individuals within that population. But I think the most wide spread common root motivation for the birther notion is one that isn't based upon race, and I think there are a multitude of factors not directly tied to race that go into why that particular method of attack was what came to rise.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I agree with you in terms of a broader, univeresal type stance. The grey I speak with is with individual situations and based around our perception.

    A man goes "I hate this president! He's not like me!".

    It COULD be because he's Black. it could be because he's a Democrat. It could be because he thinks he's muslim. It could be because he holds different views on abortoin and gay marriage. It could be because he smokes for all we know.

    Or hell, for a more relevant case...and god forgive me for bringing this up...but take the Trayvon Martin case. There should at LEAST have been enough conflicting views and opinions across the board to suggest that, at the very least, it would be inaccurate to claim with 100% factual certainty whether or not he acted the way he did specifically because of Race. Yet there are people on both sides who will declare, with absolute certainty, one way or the other...when in reality it's not fully possible for any of us to truly know for sure what role it played and HOW it played that role.

    That's why I say that often some of the things that are declared racism are subjective in nature; I mean that from a human sense, that given the information we have, and not utilizing assumptions and guesses, there is no objective truth in many of these situations. There's enough evidence that a case could be made either way in a reasonable or rational way.
    That's my point though.

    There's no reason to believe disliking Pres. Obama or George Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon Martin is about race anymore than preference in bubble gum. It's just a cheap political tool used by the left. That's what racism in the United States is today. Images like this:





    is just political theater by the left to drive a wedge between the people and win elections.

    No one is dismissing legitimate racism unless of course your definition of legitimate racism is disagreeing with the left.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    I felt like with the Obama birth certificate years long attack was fueled by opportunist asses that preyed upon the bigotry of varying levels of the masses.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Andy View Post
    That's my point though.

    There's no reason to believe disliking Pres. Obama or George Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon Martin is about race anymore than preference in bubble gum. It's just a cheap political tool used by the left. That's what racism in the United States is today.
    Based on everything else you said in that post other than "that's my my point", no....what you quoted from me was not your point because it in no way says the same thing as you are saying.

    Yes, there ARE absolutely more reasons to believe that an individuals opposition to President Obama or George Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon had something to do with race then there is to believe that it had something to do with their bubble gum preference. There are flat out racists, and individuals who at times have racist views or take racist actions, still in this country. There are absolutely people who DO have issues with Obama due to racist views, and there are absolutely people who DO engage in aggressive action towards blacks because of racists views. As such, it's absolutely reasonable to believe that there is a potential that someone dislikes the President because of his race. There's a reason to at least examine what possible role race played in regards to Martin and Zimmerman.

    The issue is that, sans some additional evidence or supporting factors, proclaiming unequivocably that it IS due to racism is problematic. But soo too is suggesting there's NO reason to believe someone is opposing the President because of race as a broad statement.

    That also leads to the next issue, judging individual situations on broad stereotypes and assumptions...or taking an individual situation and applying that to a broader group.

    Pictures such as the flaming Tea Party one ARE problematic; they antagonize racial relations and ignorantly depict an entire group of people akin to an unquestionably racist organization with a long history of physical violence. It's an action akin to "Godwin's Law" and serves nothing but to further the divide. HOWEVER, utilizing that to justify the knee jerk reaction of stating "RACE CARD" at any point race is suggested as even a POTENTIAL factor is ALSO damaging and problematic.

    You talk about "wedges" and people out to win "elections" and acting as if "The Left" is alone on dismissing anyones view on racial issues other than their own...while you sit here and utilize race as a wedge issue to score cheap political points and declare your definitive argument of what's "legitimate" and what's not as absolute truth. What you are doing is no different than those who create those images, what you do is no less damage to racial relations than them; your actions are simply the flip side of the same coin.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    I felt like with the Obama birth certificate years long attack was fueled by opportunist asses that preyed upon the bigotry of varying levels of the masses.
    Of course you would, and not a one considered it a Constitutional question.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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