View Poll Results: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

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  • Society should mention race other than the human race because its proably a use of the race card.

    2 7.69%
  • If racism exists in 2013, expose it in order to correct it seeking to make society better.

    19 73.08%
  • Sorry, I don't have a dog in that fight. No position either way.

    5 19.23%
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Thread: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

  1. #31
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who determines what is and isn't "legitimate" racism? You? Is that like "legitimate" and "illegitimate" rape?
    And this is exactly what I was talking about.

    Rather than having an intelligent conversation about the left's use of the race card, you decide to up the ante and insinuate I must hate women and want to see them raped. This is what racism, genderism, sexism, etc. is in today's United States and you're living proof why we can't have an intelligent conversation about things like racism.
    Last edited by Dapper Andy; 10-23-13 at 02:02 PM.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who determines what is and isn't "legitimate" racism? You? Is that like "legitimate" and "illegitimate" rape?
    Sadly, that's the big problem. Who really determines it? I think the "big" instances are things that, generally across the board, you have wide agreement in terms of racism save for those on the far end of the extreme. The issue is of course those instances that aren't as blatant. While I don't think every instance of "discreet" racism that is claimed is legitimate, I also think it's foolish for some who act like almost none of them are. There are undoubtably many situations that exist in this country every day where there's grey area and where a determination either direction could be made. The problem is that some see it and despite the greyness decide that its definitively "legitimate" and others who see it and think its definitively "illegitimate"; whereas often it's almost impossible to say. For those situations I wish I had a good answer on how, as a society, we should be able to tackle it in a reasonable way but sadly I don't. In part becuase the two extremes will always be the loudest, and their battle will always bleed into the minds of others in some fashion and to some degree.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who determines what is and isn't "legitimate" racism? You? Is that like "legitimate" and "illegitimate" rape?
    I suppose it can be subjective but in my thinking a real race problem is something that causes a tangible adverse affect on someone's life caused by institutional conditions, systemic conditions or deliberate and malicious treatment because of the race of the person affected. I know some people have a different view but unless its blatant and intentionally calloused, I have to see real harm before I'm willing make a big deal out of it. If the cause for the harm is institutional or systemic, I also try to be careful to make sure I'm clear no person is at fault but rather a condition needs to be addressed.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 10-23-13 at 02:38 PM.
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    1. In the USA we often over-emphasize the role of race in examining issues and ignore class issues. We have even more of a taboo against discussing class issues than we do for discussing race issues.

    2. Racists and other bigots tend to lack awareness of their prejudices and think that they are based in reality.

    3. Many outsiders are incapable of understanding why a statement or action is offensive to a certain group. That may be understandable, but out of common courtesy and respect we should be considerate of the group's complaints and accommodate them unless they are completely outrageous or impractical (which is rarely the case).
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 10-23-13 at 02:43 PM.

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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Andy View Post
    And this is exactly what I was talking about.

    Rather than having an intelligent conversation about the left's use of the race card, you decide to up the ante and insinuate I must hate women and want to see them raped. This is what racism, genderism, sexism, etc. is in today's United States and you're living proof why we can't have an intelligent conversation about things like racism.
    Two posters perfectly understood what I was getting at. It's not my problem the point went so far over your head you may as well be Gary Coleman. Please pretend to be a victim to somebody who cares. As long as it's obvious you did not understand what was said, your feigned outrage goes nowhere.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #36
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sadly, that's the big problem. Who really determines it? I think the "big" instances are things that, generally across the board, you have wide agreement in terms of racism save for those on the far end of the extreme. The issue is of course those instances that aren't as blatant. While I don't think every instance of "discreet" racism that is claimed is legitimate, I also think it's foolish for some who act like almost none of them are. There are undoubtably many situations that exist in this country every day where there's grey area and where a determination either direction could be made. The problem is that some see it and despite the greyness decide that its definitively "legitimate" and others who see it and think its definitively "illegitimate"; whereas often it's almost impossible to say. For those situations I wish I had a good answer on how, as a society, we should be able to tackle it in a reasonable way but sadly I don't. In part becuase the two extremes will always be the loudest, and their battle will always bleed into the minds of others in some fashion and to some degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I suppose it can be subjective but in my thinking a real race problem is something that causes a tangible adverse affect on someone's life caused by institutional conditions, systemic conditions or deliberate and malicious treatment because of the race of the person affected. I know some people have a different view but unless its blatant and intentionally calloused, I have to see real harm before I'm willing make a big deal out of it. If the cause for the harm is institutional or systemic, I also try to be careful to make sure I'm clear no person is at fault but rather a condition needs to be addressed.
    I don't think the situation is grey or subjective at all.

    You're either being treated in a way because of your race or you're not. That's what racism is and there isn't any in between.

  7. #37
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Going with the latter.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  8. #38
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sadly, that's the big problem. Who really determines it? I think the "big" instances are things that, generally across the board, you have wide agreement in terms of racism save for those on the far end of the extreme. The issue is of course those instances that aren't as blatant. While I don't think every instance of "discreet" racism that is claimed is legitimate, I also think it's foolish for some who act like almost none of them are. There are undoubtably many situations that exist in this country every day where there's grey area and where a determination either direction could be made. The problem is that some see it and despite the greyness decide that its definitively "legitimate" and others who see it and think its definitively "illegitimate"; whereas often it's almost impossible to say. For those situations I wish I had a good answer on how, as a society, we should be able to tackle it in a reasonable way but sadly I don't. In part becuase the two extremes will always be the loudest, and their battle will always bleed into the minds of others in some fashion and to some degree.
    I tend to leave it up to the sociologists and statistics. For example:

    Black prisoners are given longer sentences than whites, study says

    According to the report, sentences for black males were 19.5 percent longer than those for similarly situated white males between December 2007 and September 2011, the most recent period covered in the report. The commission also found that black males were 25 percent less likely than whites to receive a sentence below the sentencing guidelines.
    Wide Racial Divide in Sentencing - WSJ.com

    The analysis also found that black males were 25% less likely than whites in the same period to receive a sentence below the guidelines' range.
    [...]he then broke it down to 21 cases - including that of Buck's - which were most similar in circumstances.

    He found that seven out of the ten men sent for capital trial were black African American.

    This compares with just one of the five white defendant.

    In his report he writes: 'The probability that the district attorney will advance a case to a [death] penalty trial is more than three times as high when the defendant is African American than for white defendants.'

    In Texas the jury decides whether those convicted will face execution. Of those facing trial Harris County juries sent four of the seven black defendants to execution and also the white defendant.

    He said this slightly redressed the balance as 100 per cent of the white capital defendants in the sample were given death penalty compared with 57 per cent of the African American sample.

    But of the original group of 21 cases, the black defendants were more than twice as likely to be sentenced to death than their white counterparts, he said.

    Read more: Black people are three times more likely to face the death sentence in Houston than whites, study finds | Mail Online
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  9. #39
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    The phrase "race card" exists only for the purpose of covering up legitimate examples of racism. It is the cry to pretend that issues with racial implications don't matter unless they come from overt racist intentions. It is the wishful fantasy that racial problems in this country went away in the 1960s and that white people are now immune to criticism for the racial consequences of their actions. There is no reason to have a blanket term for "unfounded assertion that race is a factor in this issue", because only a tiny fraction of such assertions are unfounded. That there is even such a tactic as "playing the race card" exists only the minds of people who want to pretend that the choices they make and the policies they support do not prop white people up over black people.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  10. #40
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    Re: What's worse: using the race card or dismissing legitimate racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The phrase "race card" exists only for the purpose of covering up legitimate examples of racism. It is the cry to pretend that issues with racial implications don't matter unless they come from overt racist intentions. It is the wishful fantasy that racial problems in this country went away in the 1960s and that white people are now immune to criticism for the racial consequences of their actions. There is no reason to have a blanket term for "unfounded assertion that race is a factor in this issue", because only a tiny fraction of such assertions are unfounded. That there is even such a tactic as "playing the race card" exists only the minds of people who want to pretend that the choices they make and the policies they support do not prop white people up over black people.
    Here is the origin and first usage of the term. And I challenge your assertion that "only a tiny fraction of such assertions are unfounded". Playing the race card by all the names it's been known is a time honored distraction technique. Pretty much comes down to the equivilent of, "Heh everybody, look over there!".

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