View Poll Results: What should happen for the over 20mph violation example given?

Voters
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  • Acknowledge the no-traffic and quality of vehicle in consideration.

    6 8.82%
  • Severe chastizing but only written warning.

    4 5.88%
  • A ticket, but written for under 20 over due to circumstance.

    2 2.94%
  • Write a ticket for over 20 mph but under 100 mph

    3 4.41%
  • Write a ticket forthe full 170 mph

    22 32.35%
  • A huge $$ fine

    15 22.06%
  • Permanently seize car and forfeture it.

    3 4.41%
  • Jail time

    3 4.41%
  • Suspend driver's license for 1 year

    7 10.29%
  • Suspend driver's license for years.

    3 4.41%
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Thread: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

  1. #171
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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    Driving 70 mph over the limit should be a felony. Convicted violators should:

    (1) Spend at least a year in jail.

    (2) Have all their motor vehicles permanently confiscated.

    (3) Never be allowed to drive again.

    (4) Pay a big fine. The idea of of tailoring the fine to the violator's income sounds good to me-- make it at least a year's worth.
    ridiculous. I would feel much more safe if your car would not start when a cell phones was in it.

  2. #172
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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    There is no "assumed risk".
    No, there is clearly an assumed risk of things falling on your head in rock climbing. That is why rock climbers often use helmets

    Your "theory" is that drivers can't see open land, but rock climbers always are looking downward to see if anyone is below them on the ground?
    No, my theory is that someone traveling at 170 miles/hour on public roads, without warning lights, is not something people normally consider when driving on them.

    hence, it's not part of the assumed risk. This is in contrast to rock climbing where a standard piece of gear is a helmet and various safety precautions to prevent people from falling

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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    A very poorly written poll:

    (1) Posing 20mph over the limit in the question for an actual infraction of 70mph over the limit grossly understates the seriousness of the infraction. The penalty for driving 70mph over the limit should be much greater than the penalty for driving 20mph over.

    (2) Poll respondents should have been able to select more than one penalty.
    I meant it to be multiple choice and screwed up. Sorry.

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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    It was actually 100mph over the limit in his scenario. Although why the hell the driver stopped in that scenario, I dunno - the chances the cop could catch up were quite low.
    Fleeing a police officer is a felony and engages people, including the officer. Many police pursuit cruisers now will do 160. So a 10 mph advantage? Besides, no one can outrun radio waves and hoping to somehow get away expends more police resources and diverts from other police activity.

    In the OP hypothetical, the only thing the driver likely wanted to do was drive super fast in what s/he saw as a situation endangering no one for the pleasure in doing so. The Italian slogan is "the seduction of speed" for fast driving. Trying to elude the police is another matter entirely.

    If any of you make your driving habit driving the MINIMUM legal speed limit rather than the maximum even when no time needs to get somewhere, then tell me that going fast isn't attractive to you.

    The minimal Interstate speed is 45. That would be THE safest legal speed to drive on an empty highway. Who drive as SLOW as you safely and legally can? If not, many messages of this thread REEKS of hypocrisy.
    Last edited by joko104; 10-20-13 at 06:52 PM.

  5. #175
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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    Driving 70 mph over the limit should be a felony.
    Given that speeding tickets are a citation and at worst a misdemeanor that would be a big step upping it to felony. Not only would this require a trial by jury but could be a burden if the accused decides to not waive having a Grand Jury for indictment. Also the OP has it going 100mph over the speed limit.

    Convicted violators should:

    (1) Spend at least a year in jail.
    Our prisons and jails are overburdened already and you suggest that we should add to their number for a first time offense. And BTW if it is a felony it would most likely be more than a year punishment since by definition a felony requires more than a year sentence.

    (2) Have all their motor vehicles permanently confiscated.
    The vehicle that was used can be impounded but not the vehicles that were not used in the offense. And the law cannot assume that if the accused/convicted would violate any suspension on his license. The person could after all have a friend drive him in his car so it also not that the cars could not be of any use to him.

    (3) Never be allowed to drive again.
    This is extreme since the OP doesn't have a history of the driver and I can assume that this is a first time offense, she cooperated by pulling over immediately after she knew she was caught. A suspension would be reasonable but not a lifetime ban. A draconian penalty for an offense that does not involve harm to people or damage to property (actual harm) is likely to ratchet down on what is required to receive such a penalty, since there is no quantifiable standards that the penalty is weighed against.

    (4) Pay a big fine. The idea of of tailoring the fine to the violator's income sounds good to me-- make it at least a year's worth.
    This then would violate the equal protection clause as well as the excessive fines clause. Fines of this extent are almost certain to establish an Authoritarian Rule over the people by the government. Most people who are not wealthy and even many of the wealthy would not be able to afford such a fine and this can be used as a means of control over them to whatever the State would allow itself. This means giving the people who run the State would be granted enormous power than has been granted to the State so far.

    I see that you list yourself as Conservative. Perhaps a reevaluation of your lean should be made since this does not seem like anything a conservative would be for.
    Last edited by Shadow Serious; 10-20-13 at 06:54 PM. Reason: added end quote to part of origianl post
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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, there is clearly an assumed risk of things falling on your head in rock climbing. That is why rock climbers often use helmets



    No, my theory is that someone traveling at 170 miles/hour on public roads, without warning lights, is not something people normally consider when driving on them.

    hence, it's not part of the assumed risk. This is in contrast to rock climbing where a standard piece of gear is a helmet and various safety precautions to prevent people from falling
    No, the rock climber is endangering others below who are not climbers.

    Skydivers endanger people too. They have limited control who they might land on. Something might slip out of their hands, just like a rock climber could drop a pick and it lands on some non-rock climber below. There is no assumed risk when you are outdoors that someone will fall on you from the sky or drop something from the sky accidentally that hits you.

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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    ridiculous.
    Nothing ridiculous about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    I would feel much more safe if your car would not start when a cell phones was in it.
    You would be mistaken, see link:

    U.S. Census Bureau: Motor Vehicle Accidents—Number and Deaths: 1990 to 2009

    Accident numbers have not fluctuated greatly for several years, which means they have declined per mile driven. Number of deaths were lowest for decades in 2009, about 10% less per mile driven than the next best year.

    According to the following site the number of fatal accidents increased from ~30,000 in 2009 to ~32,000 in 2010, remained ~32,000 in 2011, then plummeted to ~26,000 in 2012. Also, speed is cited as a factor in 31% of fatal accidents, while distraction is cited in only 16%, and keep in mind cell phones are only one of many forms of distraction.

    Car Crash Fatality Statistics

    Of course cell phone use has been rising steadily for years. Therefore there is NO basis in the data for considering cell phones to be a more serious driving hazard than speed.

    Furthermore, nowhere near as many drivers go 100 mph over the limit as use a cell phone while driving. No one in his right mind could possibly prefer 10s of millions of 120 mph-plus drivers a day to 10s of millions of cell phone users.

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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    Nothing ridiculous about it.



    You would be mistaken, see link:

    U.S. Census Bureau: Motor Vehicle Accidents—Number and Deaths: 1990 to 2009

    Accident numbers have not fluctuated greatly for several years, which means they have declined per mile driven. Number of deaths were lowest for decades in 2009, about 10% less per mile driven than the next best year.

    According to the following site the number of fatal accidents increased from ~30,000 in 2009 to ~32,000 in 2010, remained ~32,000 in 2011, then plummeted to ~26,000 in 2012. Also, speed is cited as a factor in 31% of fatal accidents, while distraction is cited in only 16%, and keep in mind cell phones are only one of many forms of distraction.

    Car Crash Fatality Statistics

    Of course cell phone use has been rising steadily for years. Therefore there is NO basis in the data for considering cell phones to be a more serious driving hazard than speed.

    Furthermore, nowhere near as many drivers go 100 mph over the limit as use a cell phone while driving. No one in his right mind could possibly prefer 10s of millions of 120 mph-plus drivers a day to 10s of millions of cell phone users.
    thanks for proving my point, cell phones have not been around long enough for good data. I drive 60k plus miles per year, A texter scares the hell out me,way more that a speeder.
    Last edited by Rocketman; 10-20-13 at 07:04 PM.

  9. #179
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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Given that speeding tickets are a citation and at worst a misdemeanor that would be a big step upping it to felony. Not only would this require a trial by jury but could be a burden if the accused decides to not waive having a Grand Jury for indictment. Also the OP has it going 100mph over the speed limit.



    Our prisons and jails are overburdened already and you suggest that we should add to their number for a first time offense. And BTW if it is a felony it would most likely be more than a year punishment since by definition a felony requires more than a year sentence.



    The vehicle that was used can be impounded but not the vehicles that were not used in the offense. And the law cannot assume that if the accused/convicted would violate any suspension on his license. The person could after all have a friend drive him in his car so it also not that the cars could not be of any use to him.



    This is extreme since the OP doesn't have a history of the driver and I can assume that this is a first time offense, she cooperated by pulling over immediately after she knew she was caught. A suspension would be reasonable but not a lifetime ban. A draconian penalty for an offense that does not involve harm to people or damage to property (actual harm) is likely to ratchet down on what is required to receive such a penalty, since there is no quantifiable standards that the penalty is weighed against.



    This then would violate the equal protection clause as well as the excessive fines clause. Fines of this extent are almost certain to establish an Authoritarian Rule over the people by the government. Most people who are not wealthy and even many of the wealthy would not be able to afford such a fine and this can be used as a means of control over them to whatever the State would allow itself. This means giving the people who run the State would be granted enormous power than has been granted to the State so far.

    I see that you list yourself as Conservative. Perhaps a reevaluation of your lean should be made since this does not seem like anything a conservative would be for.
    The word "conservative," like liberal, libertarian or progressive do not have a universal meaning and certainly not on this forum. For some, "conservative" means totalitarian fascism. To others, it means pure socialist. For others, it means strict governmental behavioral control of the citizenry. Such leaning terms are all over the place in application.

  10. #180
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    Re: What should be penalty for 20mph+ over limit speeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Hi Lady P - it's pretty cold here today, compared to the last couple of weeks, but I haven't heard anything about snow - still well above freezing here.

    There have been some high profile cases - one in particular involved an older lady who claimed she was just trying to pass a truck - she actually got off too.

    I'm not really all that concerned about people losing the cars and licenses for a period of time - with people like this, their cars are very important to them and teaches them a lesson that a loss of money doesn't seem to do. I don't drink, except on rare occasions - I have an older car, although I do drive fast and hate slow drivers - but I just putter around the neighborhood now so it doesn't affect me much.
    So what most annoys you is that person enjoys their car and driving, and the purpose of government is to make certain people are unhappy and punished for anything that matters to them the government doesn't like.

    Of course, you are presuming that taking away the license and car stops the person from driving, just like presuming taking away someone's drugs will stop them for using drugs.

    Most people whose license are suspended do not stop driving. If the person wealthy, he'd just get another car. If not, he'd just let the ZR1 be re-possessed and finance another car before it was. It likely will be fast, but may not be as well built for it or in as good of condition.

    A more likely reality to your goal of teaching the person the illegally of doing what he likes is that next time he doesn't stop from the police. Losing his license could cost him many times more than the ZR1, that he's paying for but doesn't have. He definitely learned his lesson to not stop for the police more than anything else.

    And that time then there is a 180 mph chase. Those tend to not end well for anyone, particularly others, though a lot of patrol officers in pursuit cruisers live for them. If a fleeing car broadsides an innocent car in an intersection, generally those in the broadsided car do worse. Front engined cars do better for those inside in a frontal impact than being being broadsided. Then you REALLY have reason to imprison the person. SUCCESS!

    The problem with government control freaks - in and out of government - is they actually believe everyone will let the government control and constrain them in any and every way. Rather, it makes many people see the law, law enforcement, the court system and the government as the enemy of their life - and that actually might be accurate too as the number of local, county, state and federal laws and regulations continues to grow a million pages a day with ever more reasons to condemn people doing what they want or being less than perfect and perfectly submissive sheep.

    And then if it goes badly because the government can't yet put mind-control in people (though would like to), even if innocent people are harmed or die as a result - they justify it anyway blaming the person in the situation they put the person into in the first place. For such government control freaks, although the USA has the largest prison population on earth, many times more people with criminal records, restricted citizen's rights and paying fees to ongoing government monitoring (probate and fees), it will NEVER be enough.

    Just look at this forum's messages on any topic with any criminal punishment consequences. About 40% of the members want more laws, more severe punishment, even punishments beyond any that exist now, even beatings and torture, to totally destroy the person's life - in this instance for driving really fast across an empty desert on an empty highway. Put 100,000,000 people in jail and it wouldn't be enough.

    Remember, lots and lots of people supported Maos and Stalin's death camps and summary brutal executions and imprisonments. Americans are made of the same dna and mindset. RABID xenophobia, all FEAR based, and fear leads to hatred - wanting all your fears addressed by imprisoning anyone who even in theory makes you afraid.
    Last edited by joko104; 10-20-13 at 07:23 PM.

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