View Poll Results: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

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  • Yes

    29 51.79%
  • NO

    19 33.93%
  • Other: Explain please

    8 14.29%
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Thread: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

  1. #61
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I think the most practical analysis, though, would predict that the Tea Party would take the very conservative and moderates would join the Republicans. So the Republicans and TPers wouldn't be fighting for the same base against the Democrats. The Democrats would be left with the very liberal. Thus, the Republican party would be the group that most people in the US most closely identified with.

    The very conservative and the very liberal are the loudest groups- and of course the most detached from reality- but they're not the most numerous.
    The problem is you're seemingly thinking there's just "VERY" conservative people, moderates, and "VERY" Liberal. I think that's a very narrow view of the general public. Even within “Conservatives” and “Liberals” you’ll likely have people who largely lean that direction, but the intensity of that lean ranges between Heavy, Moderate, and Mild.

    Pew polls shows that 39% consider themselves Conservative, 37% “moderate”, and 23% Liberal. Equire’s recent poll about the “center”, 55% of them feel they are “moderate”, 25% feel they are “conservative”, and 20% feel they are “liberal”.

    So our “Moderate” number actually becomes 22%. Conservative becomes 48%. Our Liberal becomes 30%.

    Now, I think you’re crazy if you think that the “Tea Party” Party is going to get ALL of those 48% who consider themselves Conservative. ACTUALLY, I think it’d be a hard fought thing to get even half early on. Name recognition is one reason, trust in an established brand is another, and disagreements with the “Tea Party” Party depending on the stances it strikes on Social and Defense issues all are going to fragment things. Furthermore, 9% of that 48% are “Moderates” who are right leaning. Of the original “39%” number, it’s unreasonable to think that ALL of them are “Heavily” Conservative types, so you can’t count them all or an overwhelming majority for the “Tea Party” party.

    But let’s say they split that half. Suddenly you see the Democrats with a base of 30%, the Republicans with a base of 24%, and the “Tea Party Party” with a base of 24%. Suddenly, both “Conservative” parties are at a 6% deficit prior to the race to convince “moderates” to come to your side.

    We established about 20% of “moderates” up for grab…ie Individuals who not just identify as moderate, but even amongst moderates are pretty moderate. Given the bases, a Democratic candidate would need to garner 8 of that 20 percentage to pretty much guarantee a victory even if the Republicans or the TPP managed to get all the rest on their own. In reality, the Republicans and TPP probably split part of the Moderate vote, giving Democrats an even easier road.

    We’re not in a black and white world, there’s a lot of shades of grey. By all reputable polls I’ve seen, there does seem to suggest there’s more “conservatives” than there are “liberals” in the US…but where your thinking is faulty is assuming that every conservative is HEAVILY conservative and will definitely go with the Tea Party.

    I consider myself a Tea Partier. If the last election we had Barack Obama (D) vs Mitt Romney (R) vs Rick Santorum (TPP) my vote would’ve gone to Romney DESPITE viewing myself as Staunchly conservative and identifying as a Tea Partier…because I felt that Rick Santorum’s Social views and Defense views actually CONFLICT with the ideals of the Tea Party and had a legitimate chance of actually hurting this nation. Yet as the election went on, many (within a segment), of the Tea Party seemed to be championing him as their guy.

    This goes back to my earlier statement regarding of the Tea Party being a better regional, than national, entity and better as a “Movement” than as an actual “Political” party. The Tea Party is unified because it focuses on a few narrow things, and allows the rest of the important political questions to be handled on a case by case, area by area basis. You don’t get that on a federal level, as a national “party”.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    In fact, I would wager to you that within 10 years of today's date that stupid MAGA hat will be registered as a symbol of hate on par with a Swastika.
    "One of the greatest human failings is to prefer to be right than to be effective" - Stephen Fry

  2. #62
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are correct about your conclusion of what would result in the next few election cycles.

    But if you truly believe that the American people support the tea party of right agenda, why are you not willing to risk short term pain for long term success when the American people supposedly tire and grow sick of liberal Democratic policies and government and the day of the right wing Jubilee is then at hand?
    Simple. Read the second part of my post that you decided to edit out and not include.

    The Tea Party works as a movement because, as a movement, it focuses on its core principles that are the foundation that binds those within the movement. It doesn't need to have an answer to ALL political issues because it's not an actual Political Party and isn't designed to be one.

    If Fiscal and Governmental issues were the only thing that mattered in terms of voting, and everyone in the movement was happy with JUST voting based on those things, I would ABSOLUTELY be fine with the Tea Party breaking away and forming its own party and attempting to go in that fashion. I actually think, in such a hypothetical, they'd have success rather quick. I do think, to a majority of americans, their basic message is popular.

    The problem is that we don't live in that dream world. The reality is, political parties need to have a relatively consistent view and stance on a WIDE variety of issues because the electoral and legislative realities require it. Any "Tea Party Party" would NOT be the same thing as the movement, because it would seek to expand what that "unifying foundational message" is in order to put forward a complete and comprehensive paltform. And in doing so, they would undoubtably alter the palitability and attractiveness of the message as a whole to different individuals based on their views regarding those new additions.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    In fact, I would wager to you that within 10 years of today's date that stupid MAGA hat will be registered as a symbol of hate on par with a Swastika.
    "One of the greatest human failings is to prefer to be right than to be effective" - Stephen Fry

  3. #63
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    The Tea Party did not set out to become what it is today. Today the Tea Party is the Religious Right with a new name. The RR infested the GOP and frankly there is little the GOP can do about it. It is stuck with the Tea Party (Religious Right) whether it likes it or not.
    SIAP. No. Tea Partiers are not concerned with religion.. They believe religion shouldn't be a part of politics. Matter of fact, Tea Partiers believe religion constrains liberty.

    Tea Partiers are Libertarians. Liberty - what every Libertarian desires - is the ability to have what you want when you want. No taxes to hinder liberty. No big government to hinder liberrty.

    Libertarians can be GOPs in one election and dems in another election. Their ideology is their overriding driving force (just like socialist dems like, for instance, Reid, Peolsi, and Obama). Neither group is concerned with patriotism (love of the US).
    Last edited by cabse5; 10-21-13 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The problem is you're seemingly thinking there's just "VERY" conservative people, moderates, and "VERY" Liberal.
    Why would you think I think that?

    Moderate liberals and moderate conservatives have more in common with each other (and, of course, real centrists) than the shrill zealots on either side. And it'd be fantastic if, through the Tea Party actually breaking off, they could realize that.

    The vast majority of people don't agree with Ted Cruz or Ben Carson anymore than the vast majority of people agree with Noam Chomsky or Glenn Greenwald. They're all just nutbags to most of us, and they mostly get in the way of real progress.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    SIAP. No. Tea Partiers are not concerned with religion.. In fact, they believe religion shouldn't be a part of politics.
    Incorrect on the first and second.

    The Tea Party movement has zero stated stances to my understanding regarding Religion at all. INDIVIDUAL Tea Partiers, especially depending on their geographical location, may PERSONALLY have feelings and views as it relates to religious issues and indivudual REPUBLICAN Politicians who identify with the Tea Party may (and probably) do have views when it comes to religious issues. But none of those things are DIRECTLY dictated either way by the general guiding platform of the Tea Party movement.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    In fact, I would wager to you that within 10 years of today's date that stupid MAGA hat will be registered as a symbol of hate on par with a Swastika.
    "One of the greatest human failings is to prefer to be right than to be effective" - Stephen Fry

  6. #66
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    y.

    Tea Partiers are Libertarians. Liberty - what every Libertarian desires - is the ability to have what you want when you want. No taxes to hinder liberty. No big government to hinder liberrty.
    Portions of them are libertarians, however, the real observation was that a group of libertarians running an open-ended grassroots campaign found themselves successful. That success was brought on by a renewed adoption of "less government" "less spending" slogans by individuals that might otherwise be known as right-wing populists. The Tea Party Platform, as unassuming as it is in terms of leadership and hierarchy, would allow them to add a slogan or two for additional platform concerns, including moral and religious values. In effect success clouded the message.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-21-13 at 03:15 PM.
    A message to both the Left and the Right. Ari Ne'eman-"People with disabilities deserve better than to be used as props in the country’s ongoing — and so far stalemated — arguments over gun control." https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...-obama-liberty

  7. #67
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Incorrect on the first and second.

    The Tea Party movement has zero stated stances to my understanding regarding Religion at all. INDIVIDUAL Tea Partiers, especially depending on their geographical location, may PERSONALLY have feelings and views as it relates to religious issues and indivudual REPUBLICAN Politicians who identify with the Tea Party may (and probably) do have views when it comes to religious issues. But none of those things are DIRECTLY dictated either way by the general guiding platform of the Tea Party movement.
    There doesn't have to be a published platform of the Libertarian party for almost everyone to infer (except for, Libertarians) Libertarians don't have any place for religion in their politics... Religious beliefs and constrains constrain liberty....
    Last edited by cabse5; 10-21-13 at 03:21 PM.

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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
    With the recent brutal fight over the Borrowing limit and funding the ACA and another fight just around the corner would this be a good time for the Tea Party to create their own Party? I think they would draw people from both the Republican and Democratic parties. And if the public support is as large as they think it is then how could they go wrong. They have some of their own corp. donors. They could have their own platform and not have to piggy back off the GOP.
    they would pull almost no Democrats and very few independents, except for Republicans who claim to be independents because they don't want to self identify as Republican. they would absorb many libertarians, but not enough to make them a viable party.

    would it be a good strategy for them? no. they are much better off trying to force the hand of Republican leadership.

    it's not good for the Republicans in general, though. i vote candidate by candidate, and there are some moderate Republicans who i would consider voting for, especially if the opponent seems less competent. however, after this shutdown and a three year temper tantrum over a health care law that isn't even as thorough as any other first world nation, i'm hesitant to vote for anyone who might end up regularly caucusing with idiots like Ted Cruz. if other independents feel the same, this will cost them at the polls.

  9. #69
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    SIAP. No. Tea Partiers are not concerned with religion.. They believe religion shouldn't be a part of politics. Matter of fact, Tea Partiers believe religion constrains liberty.

    Tea Partiers are Libertarians. Liberty - what every Libertarian desires - is the ability to have what you want when you want. No taxes to hinder liberty. No big government to hinder liberrty.

    Libertarians can be GOPs in one election and dems in another election. Their ideology is their overriding driving force (just like socialist dems like, for instance, Reid, Peolsi, and Obama). Neither group is concerned with patriotism (love of the US).
    I'm afraid that religionists here would disagree with you.









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  10. #70
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    Re: Should the Tea Party split from the Rebublican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Simple. Read the second part of my post that you decided to edit out and not include.

    The Tea Party works as a movement because, as a movement, it focuses on its core principles that are the foundation that binds those within the movement. It doesn't need to have an answer to ALL political issues because it's not an actual Political Party and isn't designed to be one.
    Then they have the worst name since PLASTIC GLASS.

    The problem is that we don't live in that dream world. The reality is, political parties need to have a relatively consistent view and stance on a WIDE variety of issues because the electoral and legislative realities require it. Any "Tea Party Party" would NOT be the same thing as the movement, because it would seek to expand what that "unifying foundational message" is in order to put forward a complete and comprehensive paltform. And in doing so, they would undoubtably alter the palitability and attractiveness of the message as a whole to different individuals based on their views regarding those new additions.
    Which is why in the long run they will not survive. The mainstream party will tire of their parasite nature and you already see signs of that coming out of the latest shut down debacle of which they are getting major negative blowback. If they try it again in the coming year - those negatives will only rise.

    In the end, they will NOT form a true Tea Party and only attempt to hijack the Republican Party as they do NOT have the skills, talent and ability to run a day-to-day political party and all it entails. Mainstream Republicans know that this is but a temporary aberration that will fade eventually.

    And once Obama leaves office that unifying factor of the message will dissipate and fade and eventually be gone with the wind.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-21-13 at 04:09 PM.
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