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Do you support Obamacare?

Should Obamacare be eliminated?

  • No, Obamacare is great and more important than everything else combined

    Votes: 8 13.8%

  • Yes, dump the lemon before it causes more suffering.

    Votes: 26 44.8%

  • No, but it needs MAJOR serious changes.

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • Yes, replace it with real universal health care.

    Votes: 20 34.5%
  • Total voters
    58
Cardinal said:
Lulz. Joko appears to be from the future.

Anyway, voted the last one, with emphasis on "replace" as opposed to "scrap and start over."
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Just FYI. That was my vote too. Obamacare is a fraud, graft and crap. More power to corporations, less for employees, and payoffs to the insurance industry, plus shifting the burden of indigent care from wealthy land owners to working people.

Universal health care? I support it and Obamacare has NOTHING to do with universal healthcare. It is more anti-health legislation than about health care in my opinion.
 
MarineTpartier said:
I know what I would like to see replace the ACA. I'm sure, without going in to detail, you can guess what my idea is by looking at my username lol. What would you like to see replace it?
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Um....you want it replaced by an entire platoon of armed marines?

"Hi, I'm here for my ultrasound."
(Marines crash into the room through the doors and windows)
 
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joko104 said:
Just FYI. That was my vote too. Obamacare is a fraud, graft and crap. More power to corporations, less for employees, and payoffs to the insurance industry, plus shifting the burden of indigent care from wealthy land owners to working people.

Universal health care? I support it and Obamacare has NOTHING to do with universal healthcare. It is more anti-health legislation than about health care in my opinion.
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As we agree on the need for UHC I don't currently have the energy to fight you on lesser peripheral things.
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Get rid of it NOW! My insurance is sky rocketing for next year and will not cover near as much as before. It is sickening what Obama has done to the working man.
 
Cardinal said:
Um....you want it replaced by an entire platoon of armed marines?

"Hi, I'm here for my ultrasound."
(Marines crash into the room through the doors and windows)
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Great response. Very representative of your beliefs and political leanings.....
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

As of now 13 for liberty, 2 honest libs, 5 socialists, and 2 that drink the kool aid.
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Cardinal said:
Guess what! It would have sky rocketed anyway!
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Not like it did this year. This year was more than the last 10 years COMBINED
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Rocketman said:
Not like it did this year. This year was more than the last 10 years COMBINED
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There is a famous story about sex and money that I have heard in myriad variations. A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:

She: What kind of woman do you think I am?

He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.

(http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/07/haggling/)
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Certainly DO NOT eliminate it...Americans didn't know how much they liked alcohol until prohibition...but they found out...the same revelation will occur over MEDICAL care.
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Cardinal said:
There is a famous story about sex and money that I have heard in myriad variations. A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:

She: What kind of woman do you think I am?

He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.

(Now We’re Just Haggling Over the Price | Quote Investigator)
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so Obama is a whore or a mere pimp?
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

TurtleDude said:
so Obama is a whore or a mere pimp?
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I don't know, but in any case we're certainly the Johns. It's just a matter of what price we're paying and what we're getting for it. The status quo and the ACA guarantee that the price of health care will rise faster than inflation regardless. Bickering over the rising cost of the ACA vs. the status quo is sort of beside the point.
 
No one responds to my plan for universal healthcare because most elements are opposed by both political parties. But here are a few elements of it:

1. Eliminate the unique protection to the drug industry which has both exemption from anti-trust laws AND patent protection. For this reason, they can literally extort any price they want with people's very lives - selling a nickel pill for $50 each. BOTH political parties are 100% kiss-ass to the drug industry and both are on-the-take. This costs consumers and the government $10s of billions - or more - each year - but is highly profitable to incumbents's fund raising.

2. End the doctors' monopoly.
It is exorbitantly difficult and costly for anyone to become a doctor. BUT there is no need for every doctor to be a jack-of-all-trades. Rather, medical professionals, doctors and otherwise, should only be required to be trained, certified and licensed in their specific field. This would not only radically reduce the costs and time it takes to become a medical professional, but make them more expertise in their specific field.

3. Subsize medical educations: Doctors, technicians, nurses, other medical professionals.
The government should subsize (pay for) medical educations for those who can't afford it, in return for a contract for employment for a certain number of years - relevant to the cost of the education - as a medical professional for the military or in ER and government charity (call it what it is) medical facilities and clinics - at military pay grade whether in military or civilian service. This and #2 above would quickly and dramatically make more doctors and medical professionals - specialists in their fields - available. And accordingly both reduce costs and increase skill/efficiency/expertise.

4. For "free" healthcare, the government would organize such healthcare to specialized locations of such specialized equipment and medical professionals. The best heart surgeon is one who does the same surgery over and over and over. In short, assembly line medical care. A person who needs heart surgery would be transported to a facility specifically for such surgery. The same for viruses, trauma injury, Alzheimers, stroke, pediatrics, etc etc.

Assembly lines are inherently more efficient and produce a better result too. Facilities specially for the many known areas of medical care needed by hundreds of thousands or millions - diabetes, cancer, heart, dementia, pediatrics etc - would be superior in medical care and at a fraction of the costs. In fact, assembly line cars are not only a fraction that of hand built cars, but are more reliable than hand built cars. The same applies to medical care. Such specialized facilities would inherently have the most experienced and trained in the field of medical care it provides.

Highly specific specialized central locations that address the same medical conditions in an assembly line method would cost a fraction as much, would prove more consistent and reliable healthcare and treatment, and overall be more efficient.

Just those 4 would radically reduce medical costs for the indigent (and everyone), dramatically improve the quality of healthcare, and dramatically increase facilities and the number of medical professionals. It also means our military personnel would finally get truly good medical care too.

Why would anyone then get insurance? With insurance you get to pick your doctor, your location, you maybe don't have to wait in line for non-life threatening conditions and YOU have the choice. If the government is paying it? Then the government also controls it for the reason of efficiency and costs. If you don't have insurance or money and are having a heart attack, maybe you don't want to go to the government run or supervised medical facility that specializes in heart attacks - but oh well too bad. The government would provide quality, skilled medical care. However, if you want something else, you (or your insurance) pays for it. "Beggars can't be choosey."

Regardless, the medical care would be vastly better than now for indigents, as now the hospitals increasingly find excuses to give the person a bandaid and send them on their way - and Obamacare doesn't change that one iota, but rather encourages doing it more.

How to pay for it for indigent care? Income tax, ie general revenue.

BUT both political parties are lackeys for the drug industry, the AMA and the insurance industry.

So, instead, we got all this Obamacare absurd crapola that has put millions into part-time employment, millions losing employment insurance, dramatic increases in insurance premiums, no more healthcare whatsoever if not less, a huge concession to corporations allowing them to DROP insuring their employees' insurance, and the insurance industry taking a big cut of all of it, plus an army of IRS agents, bureaucrats and political partisan chaos

- along with then some strange feel-good claims such as really parents should be responsible for their kids until 26, I should pay premiums for people who destroyed their health by substance abuse via insurance premiums, convincing people they are getting something for nothing out of it, incentives to not work and lower your income, and trivia such as language about readable insurance contracts.
 
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Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Cardinal said:
There is a famous story about sex and money that I have heard in myriad variations. A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:

She: What kind of woman do you think I am?

He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.

(Now We’re Just Haggling Over the Price | Quote Investigator)
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I like this that one but I also like this one:

A cowboy who is also a ventriloquist rides up on an indian sheep herder on the plains, says hello and ask to join the indian. The indiain says "sit down" and offers him some coffee.

The cowboy ask "mind if I talk to your horse"? the indian rolls his eyes and says "go ahead"

The cowboy ask the horse: "How does this man treat you"? The horse replies "man he is great, feeds me grain, makes sure I have plenty of water and after riding me all day he brushes me down and makes sure I'm comfortable"

The cowboy says " Wow thats great and smiles at the indiam" "Mind if I talk to your dog"? Indian shrugs and cowboy ask the dog: "how are your treated?" The dog replies "man my owner is great, he gives me bones, lets me sleep by the fire, and rubs my shoulders after a long day of herding sheep"

The cowboy replies " wow thats great!" He looks at the indian and says, "mind if I talk to your sheep?" The indian shouts:

SHEEP LIE!
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

TurtleDude said:
I don't have to buy into Obamacare. your comment is idiotic
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What, do they surgically remove your sense of humour when you join the Teabagger Party?
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

Grand Mal said:
What, do they surgically remove your sense of humour when you join the Teabagger Party?
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I am not a member of the TEA Party and I don't find much about Obama to be humorous. Cancerous is the more appropriate term
 
Having insurance does NOT assure better medical care. That is another fraud in the sales pitch of Obamacare. Somehow, by having insurance, suddenly you get great medical care. In fact, it can cause inferior medical care because the economic incentive is NOT to get you well and out the door, but to rack up the billing.

Here's an exact example. A very well known, popular and connected older fella here had a heart attack (clogged heart veins, not drop-dead type). He is not wealthy and has no insurance. The local hospital? It is ill equipped for heart surgery. Because of who he was and because he would only be an expense, they put him on a medevac helicopter, flew him to a hospital in Tampa with a unit specifically for heart surgery, and before the sun rose he had had triple bypass surgery, life saved, and home in 3 days.

If he had insurance? It likely the local hospital would not have sent him right away. They could have billed his insurance tens of thousands of dollars for this and that totally incapable of adequate care for the small limitations of the local hospital, not transporting him for days, though ultimately having to anyway - if he had lived long enough and hoping permanent more heart-muscle death hadn't occurred.

His lack of insurance minimized the heart attack damage, may have saved his life, and since ultimately he would have to be transported anyway (unless he died in the running-up-the-billing delays) cost less in medical costs. Lack of insurance meant the ill equipped hospital had disincentives to keep him for no insurance. But for who he was had him transported to avoid potential political issues.

Insurance does not buy superior medical care nor an incentive for it. It provides an incentive for billing.
 
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joko104 said:
PHP: 
Regardless of your original view, do you support Obamacare now?
Many promises were made for legislation we couldn't know what it was until after it was passed. Everyone would be insured and have affordable medical care. The poor would have free insurance. Medical costs would go down as would insurance premiums. etc. etc.

The reality?

Insurance for the poor was cancelled after only 133,000 people.
Insurance premiums have gone up from 20% to 100% for less coverage.
High deductables make it so many people with such insurance still can not afford major medical care.
Millions of employees have lost their employment insurance - something that could not happen prior to Obamacare.
Millions of people have been laid off or reduced to part-time employees.
An increasing number of doctors are refusing to accept insurance or retiring.
The government faces long term shut down and gridlock.
Congress had degraded to extreme militant partisanship.
We are days away from massive national and worldwide economic collapse. Basically to destroy everything else, cause world chaos and probably millions worldwide starving to death - all to have Obamacare.
To name a few "downsides" to Obamacare" - a title the President wants it to have.

The Upsides as reason to keep Obamacare?
Eliminating Obamacare would look bad for Obama
and ???

Seeing the unfolding real-life effects, do you support Obamacare? Or do you think it should be replaced with something else?

Do you now support Obamacare?
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I support all legislation passed by a majority vote in congress, signed by the President of the USA and OKed by the U.S. Supreme Court.




[B]"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers[/B]
 
jamesrage said:
I do not support forcing companies or individuals to purchase insurance. The 30 million Americans who do not have insurance don't have it because they can't afford it.So most likely these 30 million people are going to be subsidized. Who is going to subsidize these 30 million people? Most likely those who already have insurance are going to be paying for those 30 million who originally did not have insurance, meaning their rates go up(which is probably somewhere in that two thousand plus page bill regarding the employer and individual mandates). I do support requiring insurance companies to accept preexisting medical conditions.
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I do NOT support insurance companies accepting pre-existing conditions UNLESS the premiums THAT person pays reflects the risks. Why should I pay double premiums or higher medical bills for the medical conditions of an old alcoholic?
 
shrubnose said:
I support all legislation passed by a majority vote in congress, signed by the President of the USA and OKed by the U.S. Supreme Court.



[B]"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers[/B]
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Historically that'd be rather easy to rip apart.
 
TurtleDude said:
The liberal mantra is to DO SOMETHING even if its the worst possible course of action
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Some would say that the HC system what we have is the worst. It certainly is the most expensive and the results are mediocre at best.
The Conservative mantra is nothing new is EVER better....unless it cuts my taxes. And then there's that "I got mine" mentality.
 
iguanaman said:
Some would say that the HC system what we have is the worst. The Conservative mantra is nothing new is better.
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its fine for those of us who actually bother to pay for what we get
 
Who created these terrible poll choices? I either have to say I want Obamacare eliminated, that it has major issues, or that it's better than EVERYTHING else combined? I do not want Obamacare eliminated and it has minor issues.
 
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