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Thread: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Yes.. Raising the debt ceiling is fiscally responsible. Much like threatening to default is f'n moronic.

    I'll essplain it simply. Low risk investments have low rates of return. High risk investments have high rates of return. If you a safe investment, you can borrow money for less money. If you're a dangerous investment then you've got to pay a lot more in interest. In the case of our government, our debt consists of treasury notes, treasury bills, and treasury bonds. They've always been the safest place to put your money so they command the lowest possible rates of return. (in other words, we can borrow craptons of money very cheaply).

    But that's not a guarantee. A good bit of those treasury notes/bills/bonds come due every month. Last year 7.4 Trillion dollars came due. Even though our deficit was 700Billion dollars, we had to issue 8100 Billion dollars worth of bonds.

    Next year we'll have to issue even more. Increases in interest rates will cost us 100's of billions of dollars a year. Spending 100s of billions of dollars for absolutely no reason is insane. So yes, raising the debt limit is fiscally responsible.
    Typically...you miss the point. there is no sense in having a debt ceiling when you continually break that debt ceiling. there is no 'fiscal responsibility' in pushing off your debt and obligations on future generations because you are too stupid and irresponsible to manage your spending. You cannot claim fiscal responsibility by being reckless and irresponsible and then whining about others not continuing to enable your perpetual recklessness and irresponsibility.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    You need to add these also into account.
    Article I, Section 9, Clause 7
    No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
    when the congress passed legislation authorizing programs incurring a federal obligation, the appropriation was thus made

    And congress has passed Antideficiency Act, passed in 1884, amended in 1950 and 1982. This law prohibits the federal government from entering into contracts that aren't fully funded.
    which tells the warranted contracting officers of the federal government that it is a criminal act to obligate money which has not been made available to the contracting officer to award to a federal contractor. that has no bearing in this matter. the warranted federal contracting officers are NOT obligating the monies the treasury would be directed to pay. the congress has done that. any outstanding contractor obligations would already have appropriated funds earmarked for disbursement to the contractor

    Both of these together would bar the US government from issuing new Treasury Bills. Our debt is not a stationary thing. Last year we issued more than 8 Trillion in new debt because more than 7 Trillion came due.
    notice how the treasury covered the just obligations of the federal government
    as an executive agency, the president could issue an executive order directing it to do so should the congress fail to meet is own obligation to assure those federal obligations are paid

    There's also no legal means of prioritizing payments.
    no prioritizing required. if it is due and payable, then the treasury should be directed to pay it

    The Trillion dollar coin is the only hypothetical option that has a shot at working, and it has the problem that it would probably be subject to a legal challenge. Lets just say that the threat of a legal challenge isn't going to make investors feel safe and cozy buying T bills.
    the trillion dollar coin is a stupid, untenable proposition. returning to the gold standard, another stupid idea, has a better chance, and it still won't happen
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Easy, let them do their work and keep his nose out of their business until such time as what they pass crosses his desk to either be vetoed or signed.

    Edit note: Sometimes enforcing something simply means to not do anything.
    as you have documented for us, there is no legitimate way for the president to force congress to fulfill its obligation under section 5 of the 14th amendment
    that does not preclude him from enforcing section 4 of that amendment as he promised to do when taking the oath of office
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by plutonium View Post
    should the prez execute an executive order to pay bills, vets and gov workers already acrued by congress so the u.s. will not have an economic disaster in the world... and / can the supreme court help verify it first..
    Absolutely not.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

    Ronald Reagan

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Typically...you miss the point. there is no sense in having a debt ceiling when you continually break that debt ceiling. there is no 'fiscal responsibility' in pushing off your debt and obligations on future generations because you are too stupid and irresponsible to manage your spending. You cannot claim fiscal responsibility by being reckless and irresponsible and then whining about others not continuing to enable your perpetual recklessness and irresponsibility.
    Let me explain how math works. As long as you have a deficit, you're going to need to increase the debt limit.

    No one in the GOP has proposed a balanced budget because it's simply not possible. The Ryan Budget doesn't balance the budget until 2023. That means that even if the GOP were to get everything they've ever wanted, including drastic cuts to medicare; you'd still need to continually raise the debt ceiling until 2023.

    And no, I didn't miss your point. You're operating from a drastically oversimplified view of how the debt works. If you want to stop raising the debt limit then propose a balanced budget. THAT"S WHEN YOU SPEND MONEY!!!! What you want is for congress to spend more money than it takes in and then prevent the treasury from paying for it.

    Disgusting.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Let me explain how math works. As long as you have a deficit, you're going to need to increase the debt limit.

    No one in the GOP has proposed a balanced budget because it's simply not possible. The Ryan Budget doesn't balance the budget until 2023. That means that even if the GOP were to get everything they've ever wanted, including drastic cuts to medicare; you'd still need to continually raise the debt ceiling until 2023.

    And no, I didn't miss your point. You're operating from a drastically oversimplified view of how the debt works. If you want to stop raising the debt limit then propose a balanced budget. THAT"S WHEN YOU SPEND MONEY!!!! What you want is for congress to spend more money than it takes in and then prevent the treasury from paying for it.

    Disgusting.


    You should be able to spend money like a crack fiend and have zero responsibility or integrity and anyone that expects responsibility and objects to you dumping debt on future generations is 'irresponsible'...

    classic...

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    as you have documented for us, there is no legitimate way for the president to force congress to fulfill its obligation under section 5 of the 14th amendment
    that does not preclude him from enforcing section 4 of that amendment as he promised to do when taking the oath of office
    I never said that he has to force Congress to do anything. As I said, he can do nothing and that would be fullfilling his oath. For example: Free speech. How is it enforced? By simply not enforcing laws that violate free speech.

    And yes, it does preclude him from enforcing section 4. Because section 5 specifically states that CONGRESS shall enforce it. It does not mention the President enforcing it.
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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I never said that he has to force Congress to do anything. As I said, he can do nothing and that would be fullfilling his oath. For example: Free speech. How is it enforced? By simply not enforcing laws that violate free speech.

    And yes, it does preclude him from enforcing section 4. Because section 5 specifically states that CONGRESS shall enforce it. It does not mention the President enforcing it.
    the Constitution that Obama swore to uphold tells us:
    ... The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. ...
    gives him basis for an XO to treasury directing payment of just federal obligations when measures are not otherwise taken to satisfy them
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by plutonium View Post
    should the prez execute an executive order to pay bills, vets and gov workers already acrued by congress so the u.s. will not have an economic disaster in the world... and / can the supreme court help verify it first..
    It would surprise me, if that had not been a topic between the Legislative, the Executive and the Judiciary before and again recently. I am not so very sure that I would be very happy, if the Congress lost its absolute command of what is in the purse. That would, in my opinion, endanger US democracy severely and possibly fatally.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the Constitution that Obama swore to uphold tells us:

    gives him basis for an XO to treasury directing payment of just federal obligations when measures are not otherwise taken to satisfy them
    Again, the 14th amendment, section 4 is only PART of the whole. Section 5 tells us how and more importantly in this case WHO can enforce section 4. And section 5 does not mention the exectutive branch of our government. You are wanting Obama (along with any other President) to ignore part of the Constitution just so you can push an ideaology. The President must uphold ALL of the Constitution...not just the parts the furthers his/her/your aims. So, in order to enforce section 4 Obama (along with any other President) MUST allow Congress to enforce it their own way and not his.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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