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Thread: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    here is what i see as instruction for the President:


    point out the part where it says "except for the 14th amendment"
    The President executes the duties of the office of the president. He does not have power or authority over congress. They kinda set it up on purpose that way. Something about kings and stuff.......

    And again...HE certainly bears a large portion of the responsibility for the shutdown. Since Harry Reid and the senate have essentially abrogated all semblance of responsibility to the President to negotiate and since the president starts off a 'negotiation' by stating "I refuse to negotiate"...well...that gives him squarely 50% of the responsibility.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Yeah...it does speak volumes about me. It means that I understand that if we default on our debt or don't raise the debt ceiling for appropriations already made we just end up paying higher debt costs. It means I believe any debate about debt should be during the time to set up budgets not when it's time to pay creditors. It's actually pretty sane and I daresay...FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE....


    The debt ceiling doesn't spend a dime....it gives the Treasury authority to raise the money to pay for money already spent by Congress.


    Or maybe someone that makes millions in capital gains could pay the same rate I pay for wages I've earned. There's a lot of things we can do to close deficits but sorry...there's nothing noble or Democratic by holding everyone in possible default status to ensure that we do things your way.
    Thats comical...I bet your keyboard burst into flames the second you typed "fiscally responsible"

    Last edited by VanceMack; 10-15-13 at 07:42 PM.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but does nothing to prevent him from exercising the power of the Executive
    including the issue of an XO to the Executive directed treasury
    "receive a just federal obligation - pay it"

    while he cannot create the debt (some precedent exceptions exist, such as the louisianna purchase) he can and should direct the treasury to satisfy all existing federal obligations and those that subsequently occur

    problem solved. congress obligates legislatively and the President honors his oath to defend the Constitution, including art 4 of the 14th amendment
    It doesn't have, because he has no power he wasn't given. Tell me you're not really that unknowledgeable about the Constitution? There are no implied powers there.
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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It doesn't have, because he has no power he wasn't given. Tell me you're not really that unknowledgeable about the Constitution? There are no implied powers there.
    how many XOs have been signed by the presidents thruout history
    nowhere in the Constitution is there mention of an Executive Order; however, they number in the thousands
    open a history book and learn something before posting what you would have it be instead of as it is
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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by plutonium View Post
    should the prez execute an executive order to pay bills, vets and gov workers already acrued by congress so the u.s. will not have an economic disaster in the world... and / can the supreme court help verify it first..
    I would support it, extra constitutional or not. Effective leadership is more important than a piece of paper most of our Founders weren't that excited about anyway, with Jefferson counting the days until it was gone.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    It amazes me that people really argue that the President can enforce one paragraph and yet totally ignore the rest of the essay. Tell me folks, if Obama MUST ABSOLUTELY enforce article 4 because he has sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution wouldn't it also mean that he MUST ABSOLUTELY uphold article 5 as well? If Obama just enforces article 4 and not article 5 then he is violating his oath and committing treason. However if he enforces article 5 then he is also enforcing article 4 because article 5 states that it is Congress which will enforce ALL of the 14th amendment through legislation...NOT the President as article 5 specifically states that it is Congress which shall enforce it. Article 5 makes absolutely no indication that the 14th Amendment is under the President's jurisdiction of enforcement at all, just Congresses.
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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It amazes me that people really argue that the President can enforce one paragraph and yet totally ignore the rest of the essay. Tell me folks, if Obama MUST ABSOLUTELY enforce article 4 because he has sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution wouldn't it also mean that he MUST ABSOLUTELY uphold article 5 as well? If Obama just enforces article 4 and not article 5 then he is violating his oath and committing treason. However if he enforces article 5 then he is also enforcing article 4 because article 5 states that it is Congress which will enforce ALL of the 14th amendment through legislation...NOT the President as article 5 specifically states that it is Congress which shall enforce it. Article 5 makes absolutely no indication that the 14th Amendment is under the President's jurisdiction of enforcement at all, just Congresses.
    please share with us how the president would be expected to enforce the provision of section 5 of the 14th amendment
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    he has sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution, including the 14th amendment


    emphasis added by bubba

    14th Amendment | U.S. Constitution | LII / Legal Information Institute
    You need to add these also into account.
    Article I, Section 9, Clause 7
    No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

    And congress has passed Antideficiency Act, passed in 1884, amended in 1950 and 1982. This law prohibits the federal government from entering into contracts that aren't fully funded.

    Both of these together would bar the US government from issuing new Treasury Bills. Our debt is not a stationary thing. Last year we issued more than 8 Trillion in new debt because more than 7 Trillion came due.

    There's also no legal means of prioritizing payments. The Trillion dollar coin is the only hypothetical option that has a shot at working, and it has the problem that it would probably be subject to a legal challenge. Lets just say that the threat of a legal challenge isn't going to make investors feel safe and cozy buying T bills.

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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    please share with us how the president would be expected to enforce the provision of section 5 of the 14th amendment
    Easy, let them do their work and keep his nose out of their business until such time as what they pass crosses his desk to either be vetoed or signed.

    Edit note: Sometimes enforcing something simply means to not do anything.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 10-16-13 at 11:44 AM.
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    Re: should the president enforce an exective order to pay us bills before oct 17

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Thats comical...I bet your keyboard burst into flames the second you typed "fiscally responsible"

    Yes.. Raising the debt ceiling is fiscally responsible. Much like threatening to default is f'n moronic.

    I'll essplain it simply. Low risk investments have low rates of return. High risk investments have high rates of return. If you a safe investment, you can borrow money for less money. If you're a dangerous investment then you've got to pay a lot more in interest. In the case of our government, our debt consists of treasury notes, treasury bills, and treasury bonds. They've always been the safest place to put your money so they command the lowest possible rates of return. (in other words, we can borrow craptons of money very cheaply).

    But that's not a guarantee. A good bit of those treasury notes/bills/bonds come due every month. Last year 7.4 Trillion dollars came due. Even though our deficit was 700Billion dollars, we had to issue 8100 Billion dollars worth of bonds.

    Next year we'll have to issue even more. Increases in interest rates will cost us 100's of billions of dollars a year. Spending 100s of billions of dollars for absolutely no reason is insane. So yes, raising the debt limit is fiscally responsible.

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