View Poll Results: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

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  • All cameras should be abolished

    50 49.50%
  • Abolish red light cameras only

    5 4.95%
  • Abolish speeding cameras only

    7 6.93%
  • Abolish other types of cameras only (specify)

    0 0%
  • Allow all cameras to remain in use

    28 27.72%
  • Other (specify)

    11 10.89%
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Thread: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

  1. #421
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    I was just forming the thought that perhaps the private companies that operate these red-light camera scams could be subject to lawsuits on charges related to fraud, extortion, and something akin to “impersonating a police officer”. That last, on the basis that not being a legitimate government agency, they have no genuine law-enforcement authority, and yet are claiming or at least implying such authority; and in any event, extortion if they threaten any consequences for failing to pay the ticket (since, not being a government agency, they have no authority to impose any such consequences), and fraud, because the authority on which they issue the tickets is false, along with any claimed authority to impose any penalty for failing to pay.

    But I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. What do you think, Turtledude?
    Private companies-by definition, would be operating with government approval.



  2. #422
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Private companies-by definition, would be operating with government approval.
    But they are not accountable to the people, as government theoretically is. Surely very large part of any authority that government has to enact and enforce laws (if not the entirety of this authority) is derived from its role as a servant and representative of the people that are thus governed, and from the accountability that this government is supposed to have to the people. A private company is not representative of the people, and is not accountable to the people. The people cannot vote officials into or out of office within that company; and cannot vote regarding that company's policies.

    I say that government cannot legitimately delegate any of its authority in such a manner, to any outfit, agency, or company that is not accountable to the people. I say that this authority cannot legitimately exist separated from the accountability and representation that applies exclusively to government; and that government, therefore, cannot legitimately delegate this authority to any non-government organization.
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  3. #423
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    But they are not accountable to the people, as government theoretically is. Surely very large part of any authority that government has to enact and enforce laws (if not the entirety of this authority) is derived from its role as a servant and representative of the people that are thus governed, and from the accountability that this government is supposed to have to the people. A private company is not representative of the people, and is not accountable to the people. The people cannot vote officials into or out of office within that company; and cannot vote regarding that company's policies.

    I say that government cannot legitimately delegate any of its authority in such a manner, to any outfit, agency, or company that is not accountable to the people. I say that this authority cannot legitimately exist separated from the accountability and representation that applies exclusively to government; and that government, therefore, cannot legitimately delegate this authority to any non-government organization.
    Makes sense to me, but good luck with that.

    The same could also be said even of government in the sense that government creates agencies and departments and committees that creates rules and regulations that we are expected to live under while these agencies and departments and committees are appointed and not actually answerable to the people.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  4. #424
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Makes sense to me, but good luck with that.

    The same could also be said even of government in the sense that government creates agencies and departments and committees that creates rules and regulations that we are expected to live under while these agencies and departments and committees are appointed and not actually answerable to the people.
    Yes, it certainly could. And to some degree, I think my point applies there as well.

    Ultimately, everything that government legitimately does, every power and authority that it legitimately claims, it does as a representative of the people.

    We, the people, delegate to government that power which is rightfully ours, to exercise on our behalf. Government only functions legitimately when it functions according to this principle, and with full accountability to the people for how it exercises this power.

    It is nothing new that government seeks, in its corrupt state, to try to evade accountability, and to exercise power over us that we, the people, did not willingly delegate to it.

    But I think there is a particular line being crossed, when government delegates our power to a private company, to be used against us, and with no accountability whatsoever to us. At this point, no basis remains on which to claim that this power, or any exercise thereof, still has any legitimacy.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  5. #425
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Rotaries (called traffic circles in my parts) are HORRIBLE and can cause more accidents because of the issues with merging.
    When people grow up with them they are actually MUCH safer than signaled intersections. The problem we're currently having is a lack of experience with them. Our children (or grandchildren, for those of us that are older) will handle them just fine when they grow up and be safer for it.


    Personally, I hate the damn things, too! But I didn't grow up with them. It's hard to break 40+ years of driving habits.
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  6. #426
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Yes, it certainly could. And to some degree, I think my point applies there as well.

    Ultimately, everything that government legitimately does, every power and authority that it legitimately claims, it does as a representative of the people.

    We, the people, delegate to government that power which is rightfully ours, to exercise on our behalf. Government only functions legitimately when it functions according to this principle, and with full accountability to the people for how it exercises this power.

    It is nothing new that government seeks, in its corrupt state, to try to evade accountability, and to exercise power over us that we, the people, did not willingly delegate to it.

    But I think there is a particular line being crossed, when government delegates our power to a private company, to be used against us, and with no accountability whatsoever to us. At this point, no basis remains on which to claim that this power, or any exercise thereof, still has any legitimacy.
    I think they would claim that the same authority applies to a private company as it applies to an appointed government committee. They would claim that it is done under their authority, which was gained from our authority in electing them. They would claim that anything done by an appointed committee or private company is done under their watchful eye.

    I don't buy into that, but that's what I believe their rationalization would be.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  7. #427
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    When people grow up with them they are actually MUCH safer than signaled intersections. The problem we're currently having is a lack of experience with them. Our children (or grandchildren, for those of us that are older) will handle them just fine when they grow up and be safer for it.


    Personally, I hate the damn things, too! But I didn't grow up with them. It's hard to break 40+ years of driving habits.
    I love them. Especially in low-traffic hours. They let me navigate and go rather than sitting by myself at a red light for several wasteful minutes.

    They're really not that hard, either. Like anything else that is new to us, we have to take a few moments to think and learn the nuances.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  8. #428
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    IN RECENT court decision, An Ohio Common Pleas judge ruled (after issuing preliminary injunctions) that the Village Elmwood Place actions of using cameras to issue tickets was unconstitutional and has ORDERED the village to refund the moneys so collected. The Village apparently cannot since it spent a lot of the windfall


    Great ruling-puts a nail in the coffin of these revenue gathering schemes masquerading as traffic safety.
    Sadly, our (so far winning) fight over traffic cams was lost last year. It looks like traffic cams will now become a part of traffic enforcement in Missouri. The only upside is the tickets are not "moving violations" and do not go on driving records. They are, essentially, like expensive parking tickets and can be contested in court.


    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Private companies-by definition, would be operating with government approval.
    In Missouri a peace officer has to review the evidence and issue the citation. He does not have to be paid from government funds for this "service".
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-24-14 at 11:52 PM.
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  9. #429
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Sadly, our (so far winning) fight over traffic cams was lost last year. It looks like traffic cams will now become a part of traffic enforcement in Missouri. The only upside is the tickets are not "moving violations" and do not go on driving records. They are, essentially, like expensive parking tickets and can be contested in court.
    It's the same here in Iowa.

    Makes me wonder: If you were to get a ticket from an actual police officer, and that ticket DOES go on your record, could you contest that ticket as being unequal treatment under the law? Speeding is speeding, isn't it? If so, then I would expect my officer-issued ticket to be treated that same as the camera-issued ticket.

    It can't go the other way, either. The reason they make the camera tickets a lower offense is precisely because they cannot meet the standard of due process and all that to qualify for the steeper punishment.


    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    In Missouri a peace officer has to review the evidence and issue the citation. He does not have to be paid from government funds for this "service".
    Yeah, but how much actual reviewing do you think they do? I'd bet not even enough to remember any details as soon as 2 seconds after they sign off on each one.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #430
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    Re: Abolish Traffic Enforcement Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    It's the same here in Iowa.

    Makes me wonder: If you were to get a ticket from an actual police officer, and that ticket DOES go on your record, could you contest that ticket as being unequal treatment under the law? Speeding is speeding, isn't it? If so, then I would expect my officer-issued ticket to be treated that same as the camera-issued ticket.

    It can't go the other way, either. The reason they make the camera tickets a lower offense is precisely because they cannot meet the standard of due process and all that to qualify for the steeper punishment.
    It's very hard, without other evidence, to prove a blurry picture of a driver is a given person. A police officer that's looking at you and your driver's license at the same time doesn't have that problem. Some red light cams don't even take the pic from the front, they take it from the back, which makes driver identification impossible. Tickets are issued to the registered owner of the vehicle, the first one listed on the title.



    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Yeah, but how much actual reviewing do you think they do? I'd bet not even enough to remember any details as soon as 2 seconds after they sign off on each one.
    Doesn't really matter. When they physically see someone run a red they're only using a couple of seconds of observation - and the punishment is much worse when they see it in person.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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