View Poll Results: Abolish Columbus Day, replace it with Bartolomé Day?

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  • Yes

    46 51.69%
  • No

    43 48.31%
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Thread: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

  1. #431
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I think it's universal personal opinion (except for perhaps a MURDERER) to consider the unwarranted murder of a whole bunch of people in a brutal and painful way, not to mention the rape and mutilations, wrong.
    You have yet to show that it was unwarranted and/or that it was murder.
    And back then it was obviously allowed and therefore not wrong.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Slavery is only wrong because of the law.
    Hurts!
    OMG!
    Wtf?
    We were speaking in terms of what is legal and illegal.
    Not morals and ethics (which are personal) as ChrisL is now attempting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Murder laws have been around for 4,000 years. It isn't a difficult concept... well, not to most.
    Another ridiculous comment, from the guy who said he wasn't arguing the legality of it.

    Yes murders have been around since time immemorial, just as legal killing has.
    What Columbus did was legal.
    Learn to distinguish between the two.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

  2. #432
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    What are you trying to say--that Native Americans were not already here?
    Not in Hispanola? No, they weren't...lol!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #433
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    And?
    If it wasn't illegal for him to do it wasn't illegal for him to do.
    End of story.
    Well, I gotta say your participation would be welcome by many in the abortion forum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Telling of what?
    Dissent of slavery has always been expressed.

    I think what is more telling are the supposed numbers of it today.
    Oh, I agree. We're light years ahead in that department. What I'm arguing against is any notion that it was a different time in the sense that slavery was seen as generally acceptable, as there were no democracies then any dissenting opinions on the topic would be told to jump off the nearest pier. So what is "legal" then has a very different connotation, because today what is legal is at least partly (usually) a representation of the majority of mainstream attitudes, and therefore (usually) has greater validity. When examples of the opposite exist (laws that have little to no public backing) we tend to see those laws ill founded and illegitimate.

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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Why do people act as if Columbus is the sole cause of the downfall of the native culture in this hemisphere? It was a group effort and if he wasn't leading that first group that was able to remain established, then it would've been somebody else within a few years. People act as if it weren't for Columbus, this hemisphere would still be "undiscovered" and the native population would be crapping rainbows and blowing unicorns.
    I missed those posts. I believe the main point was that we didn't have to go so far as to celebrate Columbus and use him as a role model.

  5. #435
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I don't know what that is, but in any event, no, I would like our nation to stop celebrating genocide.
    Or you know...you could look at it as a celebration of one of the most important voyages of any explorer ever. Life Erikson didn't stay in America. Columbus started the race. This country would certainly not be what we know it a today without Columbus. Nor would any South American or Caribbean nation.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  6. #436
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Or you know...you could look at it as a celebration of one of the most important voyages of any explorer ever. Life Erikson didn't stay in America. Columbus started the race. This country would certainly not be what we know it a today without Columbus. Nor would any South American or Caribbean nation.
    What we should celebrate is what we are (if celebrate-able) and how we decide to move forward. By using an ends-justify-the-means approach and raising up Columbus as some sort of role model we're communicating that Columbus's methods should be emulated, an utterly repugnant idea. It's entirely possible to say, "Yep, here we are, but our morals have evolved to the point where we can also say that the path to getting where we are shouldn't be taken in the future." History is messy like that.

  7. #437
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    What we should celebrate is what we are (if celebrate-able) and how we decide to move forward. By using an ends-justify-the-means approach and raising up Columbus as some sort of role model we're communicating that Columbus's methods should be emulated, an utterly repugnant idea. It's entirely possible to say, "Yep, here we are, but our morals have evolved to the point where we can also say that the path to getting where we are shouldn't be taken in the future." History is messy like that.
    It isn't an "ends justify the means" at all. I am quite sick of people trying to revise history to some politically correct standard. Piss on that. We wouldn't be here without violence, blood, and death. That revisionist history tries to make native populations look peaceful and that war is an invention of white Europeans (mainly of Spanish or Northern European decent).

    Now I'm not saying that it isn't a shame what happened, but the least we can do is tell the truth about it...and admit that we gained a lot out of it. We can't change it.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    It isn't an "ends justify the means" at all. I am quite sick of people trying to revise history to some politically correct standard. Piss on that. We wouldn't be here without violence, blood, and death.
    Have our ethics progressed to the point that we've sufficiently moved past glorifying that? Again, the point is not so much to flagellate ourselves silly, but to acknowledge we can choose a new way forward instead of brutalizing others as much as necessary for our economic gain.

    That revisionist history tries to make native populations look peaceful and that war is an invention of white Europeans (mainly of Spanish or Northern European decent).
    There is no opposing history I'm aware of that shows the Europeans as anything other than the aggressors. Even the Europeans' own accounts paint the natives as largely peaceful.

    Now I'm not saying that it isn't a shame what happened, but the least we can do is tell the truth about it...and admit that we gained a lot out of it. We can't change it.
    We don't disagree on this.

  9. #439
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Why do people act as if Columbus is the sole cause of the downfall of the native culture in this hemisphere? It was a group effort and if he wasn't leading that first group that was able to remain established, then it would've been somebody else within a few years. People act as if it weren't for Columbus, this hemisphere would still be "undiscovered" and the native population would be crapping rainbows and blowing unicorns.
    Nobody is saying that... they/we/I are saying that he was human garbage. The others stand or fall on their own merit. The Natives were doomed no matter what. The English were better than the Spanish but look at what happened there anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  10. #440
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I care not what you believe.


    Funny, as that is what a person with a low IQ says.
    It is also what someone who would lie about their actual IQ would say as well.

    And it wasn't really that fast.
    You have tried to be insulting towards my age, and now towards my intelligence.
    It is an appropriate reply to quell you asinine juvenile antics.

    And yes. I did see the IQ thread.
    I do not believe you one bit.
    Your responses here, and your displayed inability to reason are not indicative of one who has a high IQ as you profess.


    You don't say?
    Please, do go on, and on, and on.... Really, push on, or stop with your juvenile antics.


    Still not paying attention to what has been said huh?
    To what was that said in response?

    I did tell you I was going to respond in kind. Did I not?


    Absolutely that is a sure thing scooter.
    You just complained about it above.

    As I already stated.

    that is throwing them back in your face.
    It points out how juvenile you are being, and leaves no mistake how your own words are meant to be taken.
    And make no mistake, I am going to continue to do it.
    If you don't like it, your best bet is act like an adult and not throw them out there to begin with.

    Yet you continue on with your juvenile antics.
    Act like an adult and stop throwing them out there. You will get none in reply.
    It is very simply.




    Yes you are still showing you are
    It is a well known fact that the act of killing is not murder without a law making it so.



    Yeah it is. Quoted even.
    And that is not the only time.


    Your argument is what is pathetic as Columbus's action were not illegal and therefore not Murder.
    What you said has absolutely nothing to do with the legality of his actions.
    He was allowed to do as he did.


    Wrong again.
    You even have your arguments messed up.
    Not illegal period.

    It wasn't murder.
    It was killing.
    He was allowed to do what he did.
    That is the distinction that you fail to make.


    No you obviously don't get it.
    I have shown he declared war. The information provided said that he was allowed to do so.

    You haven't shown that he wasn't allowed, so you have failed.
    Your analogy isn't relevant to any point you are trying to make that is because you are assuming something that you do not know.


    Showing you are confused again.
    This does not support any of your claims.
    Your analogy failed.
    Did you have trouble understanding what you quoted?
    Do you not know how to stay in context?


    In context your reply is nonsense.


    Yeah routinely above 160. But it doesn't appear that you even reach 110.
    You clearly display a lack of reasoning.
    Back to the claim.

    You have yet to provide any proof that it wasn't a "real war." Not Vietnam, Do'h! as your analogy fails. But the war Columbus was allowed to declare.
    You keep trying to doge the question.
    That is because you can't show he wasn't allowed to do so.


    No.
    You are the only one shooting themselves in the foot, and mouth.

    There is no hence.
    The only equivalency between them is that they were both allowed to do as they did.
    It was legal.


    Wrong!
    Absurdly wrong.
    He was there to conquer.


    No, they broke their conquerors laws.
    Like you said (if true); "There were no murder laws against Natives."

    You are not distinguishing anything.

    He was allowed to do as he did. Therefore is was not murder.
    Which is again why the Truman comparison is apt.
    Under today's laws doing what you are allowed to do is legal and not murder.



    As presented, you have no clue as to what you have argued. So yeah, it is brilliant analysis.


    Delusional?
    Ha. The delusion is all yours.

    Are you saying it isn't true?
    Are you saying that you don't call abortion murder, when it is not.
    Which is the same thing here, you are calling legal killing murder, and it just isn't.
    Your actions and assertions here are what have been delusional.



    Oy Vey!

    This is again your failure... to reason.

    Your argument that laws are subjective is also a great argument for keeping separate but equal as a law as well.
    Duh!

    No, Laws are not subjective. They are the Law.
    And are supposed to be black and white without and any vagueness.
    Which would be objective.

    How they come to be a law is what is subjective.
    Holy Crap!

    You are turning into a bore... everything is wrong? Everything?

    Whatever bud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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