View Poll Results: Abolish Columbus Day, replace it with Bartolomé Day?

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  • Yes

    46 51.69%
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    43 48.31%
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Thread: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

  1. #231
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    Spaniards may not have been cruel, but they changed the nature of a thriving culture for eurocentric ideals.
    We introduced an entire continent's worth of people to technology and modes of living millennia ahead of their own while simultaneously putting an end to a hyper-violent native culture which hadn't even stumbled into the bronze age yet and a religion which perpetuated tens of thousands of institutionalized human sacrifices each year.

    What's wrong with that?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 10-14-13 at 10:41 PM.

  2. #232
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I think we shouldnt celebrate it at all.
    He was trying to find India and failed landed here murdered hundreds of thousands of natives, kidnapped them, and opened the door to the slave trade. He was a murderous scum.
    He's hardly a stellar individual but let's not rise to hyperbole. He didn't murdered 'hundreds of thousands' much of the documentation we have comes from his fiercest political opponents who lambasted him before the Court of Spain. Pre-modern history is frustratingly replete with impossibly high numbers that are recorded as factual. Simple logic should rule this one out however. Columbus at most commanded a few hundred full time soldiers with a few thousand colonists to support him and only reigned from 1492-1500 of which only a small portion was spent with an actual colony to govern. To suppose that he managed to kill hundreds of thousands is to posit that he did literally nothing but kill 24 hours a day for several years. Thousands perished in raids, under brutal labor conditions, and most prominently the lethal arrival of western disease.

  3. #233
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    He's hardly a stellar individual but let's not rise to hyperbole. He didn't murdered 'hundreds of thousands' much of the documentation we have comes from his fiercest political opponents who lambasted him before the Court of Spain. Pre-modern history is frustratingly replete with impossibly high numbers that are recorded as factual. Simple logic should rule this one out however. Columbus at most commanded a few hundred full time soldiers with a few thousand colonists to support him and only reigned from 1492-1500 of which only a small portion was spent with an actual colony to govern. To suppose that he managed to kill hundreds of thousands is to posit that he did literally nothing but kill 24 hours a day for several years. Thousands perished in raids, under brutal labor conditions, and most prominently the lethal arrival of western disease.
    I fail to see how that makes anything better.


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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    It's actually kind of bizarre how Columbus has an almost glowing reputation in modern popular culture, where Cortez is largely remembered as being some sort of blood thirsty barbarian. It was really quite the opposite.

    Cortez was a shrewd diplomat and pragmatic warrior who lead a native coalition to take down one of the most brutal regimes in recorded human history. Columbus was basically a power mad lunatic who got lucky enough to stumble upon one of the most important discoveries in Western history in spite of his own incompetence.
    Hell, Andrew Jackson is on the twenty.

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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I fail to see how that makes anything better.
    It doesn't but hyperbole is extraordinarily common when discussing the colonization of the Americas and this is one example that I just wanted to correct.

  6. #236
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    We introduced an entire continent's worth of people to technology and modes of living millennia ahead of their own while simultaneously putting an end to a hyper-violent native culture which hadn't even stumbled into the bronze age yet
    that made me smile

  7. #237
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    We introduced an entire continent's worth of people to technology and modes of living millennia ahead of their own while simultaneously putting an end to a hyper-violent native culture which hadn't even stumbled into the bronze age yet and a religion which perpetuated tens of thousands of institutionalized human sacrifices each year.

    What's wrong with that?
    Yes but you also introduced disease, Europeanized language which many inhabitants spoke for generations, an almost lost culture not to mention a psychological influence of divisiveness. Most people of those regions do not speak their ancestral language. The Aztecs never spoke spanish they spoke Nahuatl, yet the arrival of the Spanish introduced Costillano spanish to replace the indigenous tongue. The idea of a hyper-violent society is meant to smokescreen the Aztec achievement which was many for such a "barbaric" society.
    “Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”

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  8. #238
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    Yes but you also introduced disease, Europeanized language which many inhabitants spoke for generations, an almost lost culture not to mention a psychological influence of divisiveness. Most people of those regions do not speak their ancestral language. The Aztecs never spoke spanish, yet the arrival of the Spanish introduced Costillano spanish to replace the indigenous tongue.
    The effects of the diseases we carried with us were unfortunate, but ultimately could not really have been avoided. Even if Europeans had "come in peace," so to speak, the diseases our diplomats carried with them still would have ravaged the Native American population anyway regardless.

    As far as culture and language are concerned, I don't see why it should really matter. You don't see the French complaining about how they lost their "original" language and culture to the Romans, do you?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 10-14-13 at 11:23 PM.

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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    The effects of the diseases we carried with us were unfortunate, but could not really have been avoided. Even if Europeans had "come in peace," so to speak, the diseases our diplomats carried with them still would have ravaged the Native American population anyway regardless.

    As far as culture and language are concerned, I don't see why it should really matter. You don't see the French complaining about how they lost their "original" language and culture to the Romans, do you?
    Well that is the French. The result of European colonialism in the Americas are those in contemporary times (such as descendants of oppressed cultures) who are prideful of their original heritage and language. Although now it's too late to turn back time, I think the idea of "we brought them this, or that" is indicative of Eurocentric mentality. Cortez certainly didn't come in peace and of course the invading Spaniards thought the Aztecs were "barbaric" because they were evangelized Christians who sought to evangelized a culture they thought was barbaric this is called colonialism. Sure technology such as science and medicine came out of it. But that culture has lived for centuries medicine was not a problem for them.

    These people developed a complex math system which we are astonished even today, so these people were hardly mindless goons in the sense.
    “Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”

    -Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Right. What is being celebrated is honoring a guy that accidentally came across a land mass already occupied by people for 30,000 plus years. He then enslaved as many as he could. He never even knew that he had not found land around India. He failed and we honor him...
    Whaaaa!
    We honor him for his discovery.

    Get over it.
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