View Poll Results: Abolish Columbus Day, replace it with Bartolomé Day?

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    46 51.69%
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    43 48.31%
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Thread: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

  1. #151
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    If you'd rather be living in a teepee somewhere than with the technology and creature comforts Western Civilization provides, go right ahead and do it then. I doubt your presence would be much missed.
    Yes, because as we all know - "civilization" is determined by Western culture only.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #152
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I guess that's better, but probably still influenced by those crazy people up north.
    Maybe a little.

  3. #153
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Bloody land grabbing and tribal conflicts in the ancient world does not constitute genocide. What Turkey did, in the modern world, does.
    .... So what the Europeans did in Africa... is that genocide? Or bloody land grabbing?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #154
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    .... So what the Europeans did in Africa... is that genocide? Or bloody land grabbing?
    There was no attempt to wipe out an ethnic group. Horrible slaughter for land of Biblical proportion? Sure, it was very ugly just a few hundred years ago. War crimes were not much of a consideration, let alone prosecuting for such. We (the West) were barbarians, slaughtering anything before us in a mad land grab. If there was intent to wipe out an ethnic group, there would not be a dozen major tribal languages in Kenya. No tribe ceased to exist and there's no evidence of an attempt to eliminate an ethnic group. Without that intent, it doesn't meet the fundamental definition.

    Colonialism was horrible, but it does not meet the (primary, intent-based) definition of genocide.


    I find using the term loosely, for political gain no less, unreasonable. Neither the expansion west nor the a-bombs nor colonialism (with exceptions) were genocide. There was no intent to wipe out an ethnic group.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 10-12-13 at 12:56 PM.

  5. #155
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    There was no attempt to wipe out an ethnic group in Kenya
    That's but one country.

    Horrible slaughter for land of Biblical proportion? Sure, it was very ugly just a few hundred years ago. War crimes were not much of a consideration, let alone prosecuting for such. We (the West) were barbarians, slaughtering anything before us in a mad land grab. If there was intent to wipe out an ethnic group, there would not be a dozen major tribal languages in Kenya. No tribe ceased to exist and there's no evidence of an attempt to eliminate an ethnic group. Without that intent, it doesn't meet the fundamental definition.
    This is a pretty spurious argument you're making here. It doesn't take the complete wipe out of a group for it to be considered a genocide. The Herero, Namaqua and 20% of the Congo Free State were systematically attacked as a group over and over again.

    Colonialism was horrible, but it does not meet the intent-based definition of genocide.
    It seems history disagrees with you. German colonialism directly met the intent-based definition of genocide:

    GENOCIDE - Namibia

    The German Emperor replaced Major Leutwein with another commander, this time a man notorious for brutality who had already fiercely suppressed African resistance to German colonisation in East Africa. Lieutenant-General Lothar von Trotha said, 'I wipe out rebellious tribes with streams of blood and streams of money. Only following this cleansing can something new emerge'. Von Trotha brought with him to German South West Africa 10,000 heavily-armed men and a plan for war.

    On October 2, 1904, von Trotha issued his order to exterminate the Herero from the region. 'All the Herero must leave the land. If they refuse, then I will force them to do it with the big guns. Any Herero found within German borders, with or without a gun, will be shot. No prisoners will be taken. This is my decision for the Herero people'.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 10-12-13 at 01:11 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #156
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Obviously, we cannot say that what happened in one place (my post notes exceptions) means that colonialism (as a whole) was genocide.

  7. #157
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Obviously, we cannot say that what happened in one place (my post notes exceptions) means that colonialism (as a whole) was genocide.
    I was addressing the claim that "Bloody land grabbing and tribal conflicts in the ancient world does not constitute genocide." - If that bloody land grabbing comes along with the extermination of many peoples, as it usually does, it's genocide. I'd say most European excursions into the New World as well as Africa most certainly counted as genocide. All this to say is that you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Land grabbing is a goal. Genocide is a method.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  8. #158
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I was addressing the claim that "Bloody land grabbing and tribal conflicts in the ancient world does not constitute genocide."
    That's a statement of fact. There's no debate. Look up the definition.

  9. #159
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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Yes, because as we all know - "civilization" is determined by Western culture only.
    In comparison to what existed in the Americas before we arrived? Absolutely.

    The best the Western Hemisphere had to offer in the Pre-Columbian era was scattered stone age tribes of hunter-gatherers, a smattering of primitive agriculturalists, and a handful of more "advanced" Civilizations that wouldn't have been terribly out of place in the Egyptian era back in Eurasia, while being five or ten times as bloodthirsty and barbaric.

    The effects of the diseases and exploitive attitudes some European colonists brought with them may have been horrific, but it's hard to deny that Western influence has been a net benefit to the Americas in the longrun anyway regardless.

    The Pre-Columbian Civilization was basically a dead end.

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    Re: Should we abolish Columbus Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    I wonder why...maybe because they were the last to get crushed... Or else they got the term from Canada....
    I'm pretty sure it's a political correctness thing.

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