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If you lived in 1938 Germany...[W:104]

How do you believe you would have reacted to Jewish persecution?

  • I would have supported it fully and openly.

    Votes: 1 2.1%

  • I would have fallen in line and said nothing.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I would have said nothing openly, but not actively supported it.

    Votes: 2 4.3%

  • I would have passively resisted.

    Votes: 16 34.0%

  • I would have openly resisted and been outspoken against it.

    Votes: 5 10.6%

  • I would have been willing to put myself physically in harms way to protect them.

    Votes: 6 12.8%

  • I like to think I would have done #4 thru #6, but probably would have done #2 or #3.

    Votes: 17 36.2%
  • Total voters
    47
Gimmesometruth said:
Um, I did not bring up Muslims, nor was I the one making the same arguments used by NAZI's against the Jews now being posted against Muslims.

I mean.....the irony just escapes you.....and Mr B.
Click to expand...

Nobody is making the same arguments as the Nazis.

If there is any irony here, it lies in the fact that completely uneducated individuals are trying to lecture those who have actually studied the Holocaust.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Absolute straw, I said you are making the same false arguments that German Fascists used to demonize the Jews. You are using a guilt by association argument and you are getting close to saying that Muslims have an inherent predilection to terrorism.
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mbig said:
I am saying it.
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Gimmesometruth said:
Go ahead then and take the next step and say that Muslims have an inherent predilection to killing...or other terrorist acts. I dare you.
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mbig said:
I already said it and have backed it SCORES of times on this board.
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Gimmesometruth said:
No you are still dancing around, playing on the edge.

Just simply say what you admitted was your argument but could not actually state:

"Muslims are inherently violent and terroristic because of their religion."
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mbig said:
That's not precisely what I said.
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I know you won't state it clearly now because yo are coming around to understanding it is hate speech. You agree with the idea when i characterize it.....but you won't bring yourself to actually repeating the words.

As I said, you are just dancing around, but it is clear what you want to say.

And again, the irony escapes you.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
I know you won't state it clearly now because yo are coming around to understanding it is hate speech. You agree with the idea when i characterize it.....but you won't bring yourself to actually repeating the words.
As I said, you are just dancing around, but it is clear what you want to say.
And again, the irony escapes you.
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You're Lying again.

1. I've even offered/conceded to go with just go with "inherently" to help you make your otherwise Non-case.
And what is your response?
I've also elaborated/laid out my position on the "terrorist" strawman.

2. What Precisely are you saying is "Hate Speech".
QUOTE THOSE WORDS EXACTLY PLEASE.

3. Is what I've said (and you allege is "Hate Speech") True?
Tell me Why/How it isn't true or Concede the point.

4. Your post is NOT responsive to my #71 at the top of this page. Anything?
Yup, I said "inherent" and "near sweep" on terrorism.

Numbered 1-4 for easy but nonevasive reply.
 
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Gardener said:
Nobody is making the same arguments as the Nazis.
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Right, you previously made a guilt by association argument (Muslims are terrorists, the NAZI's made the same argument against Jews, and it was based on religion) and you implied Muslims are inherently violent because of their religion.

If there is any irony here, it lies in the fact that completely uneducated individuals are trying to lecture those who have actually studied the Holocaust.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid when you don't see your own negative bias against members of a certain religion, it then is pointless to even take someone as being serious when they try to claim some kind of expertise religious persecution.
 
This is impossible for me to answer. My diverse, multi-cultural upbringing is clouding my ability to imagine myself as an average German citizen in 1938. I like to think that I would have been smart enough to see through the propaganda and brave enough to openly resist, but hindsight is 20/20 right? I don't see how I can honestly answer this question. There's just no way for me to know what kind of person I would have been.
 
DaveFagan said:
A great deal would depend on the individual's age. I was a blind patriot until I was about 22-23 and started to wake up. Vietnam was a good education. I'd have probably been brainwashed and gone along with the Nazis in my youth, but would have rebelled in my maturity. I think there are many of us that would have been exactly the same.
Click to expand...

Yep, you ever heard of the Milgriam experiment?

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
mbig said:
nonevasive reply.
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Oh my, the hypocrisy, the irony.

Look, if you do not understand why the statement "Muslims are inherently (insert any negative characteristic) due to their religion" is hate speech, there is no point in continuing.
 
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Gimmesometruth said:
Oh my, the hypocrisy, the irony.

Look, if you do not understand why the statement "Muslim are inherently violent due to their religion" is hate speech, there is no point in continuing.
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I knew you would NOT be able, as you haven't Throughout to be responsive.
You continue to Dishonestly Abuse the "quote" signs AS IF you are quoting, not characterizing me.

Now even worse, you truncate 90% of my post in your reply.

Besides trying to to paint me as a bigot and/or get me banned, you had ZERO, Absolutely ZERO, to say on the Subject of Islam and it's "Inherent" [violence, intolerance, terrorism] and their frequency among Muslims and their Govts/religious leaders which Would be Crucial to the debate.

I have debated this topic scores of times on DP and I have to say No one was ever as Evasive as you.
Everyone else at least attempted a Fact-based defense/refutation of my points.
You were a Total Washout who only sought to Disqualify/ad-hom facts/truth.
 
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radcen said:
If you lived in 1938 Germany... How do you believe you would have reacted to Jewish persecution?

1) I would have supported it fully and openly.
2) I would have fallen in line and said nothing.
3) I would have said nothing openly, but not actively supported it.
4) I would have passively resisted.
5) I would have openly resisted and been outspoken against it.
6) I would have been willing to put myself physically in harms way to protect them.
7) I like to think I would have done #4 thru #6, but probably would have done #2 or #3.

I purposely did not include "Other" as an option this time, as that is a cop-out for this question. If you cannot answer given the range of options above, you're participation is not really necessary.

ETA: Please note that the question is intended to be from a non-Jewish perspective.
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I think the assumption you are making is I would have known about it, yes?
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Right, you previously made a guilt by association argument (Muslims are terrorists, the NAZI's made the same argument against Jews, and it was based on religion) and you implied Muslims are inherently violent because of their religion.

I'm afraid when you don't see your own negative bias against members of a certain religion, it then is pointless to even take someone as being serious when they try to claim some kind of expertise religious persecution.
Click to expand...


Muslims ARE engaging in international terrorism today, and a person would have to be some sort of combination of extremely stupid and extremely dishonest to think they aren't.

Despite your pitiful attempts at framing this discussion to serve your own dishonest ends, stating the truth does not make one like a Nazi.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
That is hate speech:

18. Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PM's are forbidden at Debate Politics. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence.
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties.
C) Claims of severe dehumanization.
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group.

Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion (also atheists)
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered)
g) Disability


You are in violation of the forum rules.
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No he is not. It is not hate speech to say that there are people who kill and people who are killed "in the name of Islam." Nowhere did he say that all Muslims are guilty of murder. Learn the difference.
 
Gardener said:
Muslims ARE engaging in international terrorism today, and a person would have to be some sort of combination of extremely stupid and extremely dishonest to think they aren't.
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And a person would be even more stupid to use that as a guilt by association argument.

Despite your pitiful attempts at framing this discussion to serve your own dishonest ends, stating the truth does not make one like a Nazi.
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And it would be dishonest to imply I called you a NAZI, I said that by using the guilt by association argument you are using the same technique the NAZI's used when persecuting the Jews.

And you still don't get it.
 
Mithros said:
I'm pretty sure that I never mentioned 1938.

The extermination of the Jews didn't begin until 1941, and the Final Solution wasn't implemented until 1942. The Nazi's pogrom against the Jews began in 1933.

I took the liberty of extending the question to cover the entirety of the mistreatment against the Jews.
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Well, you're free to post whatever you like. My post was in response to the opening thread, which specified 1938.
 
I would have probably given serious thought to leaving. However, I must add that my own population was being attacked years prior to that by the same regime, so any discussion about 1938 would have to be viewed through the lens that perhaps there was no reaction from me.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
And a person would be even more stupid to use that as a guilt by association argument.

And it would be dishonest to imply I called you a NAZI, I said that by using the guilt by association argument you are using the same technique the NAZI's used when persecuting the Jews.

And you still don't get it.
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Speaking any sort of truth is engaging in guilt by association, now, is it?

Is this the sort of crap they are teaching you at your Madrassa these days or something?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
oh the german people knew about what was going on. there were death camps set up right next to cities and people saw the jews being marched to the camps after they arrived on the trains.
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I used to say that too, but I don't now. My mother became friends with a wonderful German lady who married an American GI, and I really thought about her, "Ya, all the Germans say they didn't know. :roll:"

Except that I learned at this lady's funeral two years ago that she really didn't know. She didn't live in a city; she lived on a farm near a village.

I also learned that the person I thought I had known so well was truly unknown to me. At her funeral I heard for the first time how the Russians stormed through, shooting everyone in sight, including her father. She, her brother, and her mother fled into the woods with literally nothing but the clothes on their backs and didn't discover that the others were alive until after war.

She did what she had to do to survive, and it doesn't take much imagination to figure out what a girl of 16 had to offer. But she learned English quickly and so well that she became useful to the Allies and eventually worked as a translator. And met her husband, came here, started over, and never spoke again ever of her life in Germany.

Sharing this because I hope it's instructive in a "Don't judge--you never know..." way.
 
Gardener said:
Speaking any sort of truth is engaging in guilt by association, now, is it?
Click to expand...
Americans have committed acts of terrorism, are all Americans terrorists? Are Americans prone to acts of terrorism because of their Americanism?

Is this the sort of crap they are teaching you at your Madrassa these days or something?
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See now, this is just more evidence of your Islamophobia.

And the irony of you making any comments about the persecution of certain religious groups still escapes you!
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Americans have committed acts of terrorism, are all Americans terrorists? Are Americans prone to acts of terrorism because of their Americanism?

See now, this is just more evidence of your Islamophobia.

And the irony of you making any comments about the persecution of certain religious groups still escapes you!
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I made two statements of fact. I said that in 1938 Jews were not involved in international terrorism. I said that today Muslims are, which is also a fact. Now, just because you react with hysteria and start flinging idiotic crap this way and that, the facts remain.

I must thank you,however, for confirming a long held theory I have had in regarding the inverse relationship between many people's chosen user name and their actual pattern of behavior. Far from wanting people to give you truth, the entire notion seems anathema to you.
 
Gardener said:
I made two statements of fact. I said that in 1938 Jews were not involved in international terrorism. I said that today Muslims are, which is also a fact. Now, just because you react with hysteria and start flinging idiotic crap this way and that, the facts remain.

I must thank you,however, for confirming a long held theory I have had in regarding the inverse relationship between many people's chosen user name and their actual pattern of behavior. Far from wanting people to give you truth, the entire notion seems anathema to you.
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Um, stating "facts" is not finding a "truth", the truth of the matter is that you still cannot bring yourself to recognize that one cannot logically hold to Islamophobia and have an understanding of religious persecution.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Americans have committed acts of terrorism, are all Americans terrorists? Are Americans prone to acts of terrorism because of their Americanism?
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F!nally, at least a weak Attempt at meat/justification.
This will backfire even worse than your nebulous nonsense.

It would depend on WHY Those "Americans" committed terror acts of course!
If ie, as well more often than not, they were Muslim-Americans attempting to commit the acts against the USA in the NAME of Islam that would show how absurd your analogy is.

That would be 50 Foiled plots (and more than 100 arrests) in/against America since 9/11.
50 Terror Attacks Foiled Since 9/11
Not including 'Successful' plots like Fort Hood.
Ouch.

And how many other terror attacks by [non-Muslim] 'Americans' do you allege? Over what period? V whom?
To make a generalization like "inherent" or "Inordinate" one needs... well.. Inordinately Large numbers with an Inherent Theme of course.

Is it Several Hundred Dead Every Week..... and 1500-2000 DEAD EVERY Month as is the case for terror acts In The Name of Islam?

TheReligionofPeace.com said:
Weekly Jihad Report
Sep 27 - Oct 04

Jihad Attacks: 55
Allahu Akbars*: 10 (Suicide attacks)
Dead Bodies: 430
Critically Injured: 1086
-
-
Monthly Jihad Report
September, 2013

Jihad Attacks: 233
Countries: 19
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 2005
Critically Injured: 3079
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Details of Just the last 30 DAYS Til yesterday.
[http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks]
and only those committed by Islam against other religions orother sects of Islam
[http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm]
Yup another 200 Jihad Attack Month.

and remember, this is Thematic (inherent), (inordinate), Violence Worldwide in Islam's Name, Not street or other crime.

Comparables for other religions please?
If not you're going to have to eat some stuff.
More people Die in the NAME of Islam Many Single Days than have died from abortion clinic violence in 30 YEARS.

These Facts are why I wanted to get you into a tangible debate.
It's Wildly/Inordinately/Infinitely More Violent and it's Worldwide/Inherent.

Gimmeesometruth said:
See now, this is just more evidence of your Islamophobia.
Click to expand...
Same website:
Islamophobe (is-slahm-o-fohb) - A non-Muslim who knows more than they are supposed to know about Islam.
 
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Gimmesometruth said:
Americans have committed acts of terrorism, are all Americans terrorists?
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mbig said:
It would depend on WHY Those "Americans" committed terror acts of course!
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No no.....I asked: if by guilt of association are ALL AMERICANS also terrorists because of one or more American terrorists. You keep avoiding the question.

Are Americans prone to acts of terrorism because of their Americanism?
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mbig said:
It would depend on WHY Those "Americans" committed terror acts of course!
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I gave you the "why"....because of their Americanism. Again, you seem to be implying but avoiding the direct question, "Are Muslims inherently violent because of their religion?".

Try again, Mr backfire.

Islamophobe (is-slahm-o-fohb) - A moron who knows next to nothing about Islam.
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Fixed it for you.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Um, stating "facts" is not finding a "truth", the truth of the matter is that you still cannot bring yourself to recognize that one cannot logically hold to Islamophobia and have an understanding of religious persecution.
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Ah -- so you simply indulge in a personal attack by using a recently made up term rather than displaying even a scintilla of knowledge, understanding or intelligence.

Got it.
 
Gardener said:
Ah -- so you simply indulge in a personal attack by using a recently made up term rather than displaying even a scintilla of knowledge, understanding or intelligence.

Got it.
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LOL...you falsely accuse me of ad hominem while you indulge in it!

Classic!

Tell me again how the NAZI's did not go after Jews due to their religion. Knowledge, understanding and intelligence...indeed.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
LOL...you falsely accuse me of ad hominem while you indulge in it!

Classic!

Tell me again how the NAZI's did not go after Jews due to their religion. Knowledge, understanding and intelligence...indeed.
Click to expand...

The Nazi persecution of Jews was not because of the religion of Judaism.

You should try learning a little bit about subjects before making all these incredibly ignorant and unintelligent postings.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
No no.....I asked: if by guilt of association are ALL AMERICANS also terrorists because of one or more American terrorists. You keep avoiding the question.
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And I NEVER Said "all muslims are terrorists"
In fact, I Specifically Warned against that BS Strawman MORE Than once in our exchange.
WTF!
Yet, because of Obtuseness, or more likely Dishonesty, you try it anyway.
From my FIRST Post to you.
Top of Page 6, #51
mbig: "(But please spare us the strawman word 'terrorism', though they are hugely Over-represented/near-sweep in that field too. But no, Not "all muslims are terrorists". Doh)"

I said Muslims are Inherently/INORDINATELY Violent and Intolerant and a "near-sweep" in Terrorist count.
And My Links Back me.
They are Wildly and Disproportionately So.

Gimme said:

I gave you the "why"....because of their Americanism. Again, you seem to be implying but avoiding the direct question, "Are Muslims inherently violent because of their religion?".
Try again, Mr backfire.
Fixed it for you.
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What the hell are you talking about.
NAME The Terror attacks committed because they were "Americanist". How many? There are 200 Muslim terror attacks a MONTH.
I gave you THOUSANDS because Muslims were Islamist.
In fact there are more 'American' Muslim Terrorists that any other 'American' Terrorists combined.
I Linked 50 such plots Since 9/11 alone.
AGAIN, How many for other Americans?
Not to mention the Worldwide/Inherent/Thematic Jihad.

You are beneath Incoherent. Really.. The posts too Obtuse to debate.
So I just hold them up for the abuse they deserve
 
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