View Poll Results: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

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    6 8.11%
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    7 9.46%
  • Evolution

    10 13.51%
  • The Consequences of Gay Marriage

    15 20.27%
  • Trickle-Down Economics

    12 16.22%
  • Makers vs. Takers

    6 8.11%
  • Immigration

    2 2.70%
  • The Drug War

    7 9.46%
  • Voting Rights

    0 0%
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    9 12.16%
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Thread: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

  1. #31
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Money refunded to the top 1% is the guise Reagonomics use.
    Everyone who payed income taxes saw an increase in their paycheck, including low paid workers like I was at the time. Saying that it only went to the top 1% is a laughable rewrite of history. You may as well say that Hitler won WW II.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Who got more??
    My rebate was about $12 at one time per month..
    How about those getting back $12 million..
    With high interest rates, they all made a fortune on their Reagan Rebates just on interest alone..
    who will be the first to $100 billion--the first Trillionaire
    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Everyone who payed income taxes saw an increase in their paycheck, including low paid workers like I was at the time. Saying that it only went to the top 1% is a laughable rewrite of history. You may as well say that Hitler won WW II.
    Physics is Phun

  3. #33
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/us...d.html?hp&_r=0

    To quote:

    Both [Obama and Boehner] were counting on the prospect of a global economic meltdown to help pull restive Republicans into line. On Wall Street, among business leaders and in a vast majority of university economics departments, the threat of significant instability resulting from a debt default is not in question. But a lot of Republicans simply do not believe it.

    Seeing as how this is like deja vu all over again, I pose a question: On which issue does the GOP have the loosest grasp of facts and the broad consensus of experts when it comes in opposition to their preferred ideology?
    To respond to this would be to accept the premise of the OP, which is opinion therefore invalid. It is clear this is a vehicle to generate responses from those who agree and disregard the opinion of those who do not.

  4. #34
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Who got more??
    My rebate was about $12 at one time per month..
    How about those getting back $12 million..
    With high interest rates, they all made a fortune on their Reagan Rebates just on interest alone..
    who will be the first to $100 billion--the first Trillionaire
    tax cut =/= rebate
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  5. #35
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman909 View Post
    To respond to this would be to accept the premise of the OP, which is opinion therefore invalid. It is clear this is a vehicle to generate responses from those who agree and disregard the opinion of those who do not.
    To disregard the premise of this poll and the quoted article as mere opinion is itself delusional. The GOP has a repeated and well-documented habit of disregarding verified data, the broad consensus of experts, accumulated evidence, and mere common sense in all of the given examples.
    "Obamacare delenda est"

  6. #36
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    However government is constituted, it's going to be coercive in some way. It has to be, and I think I can guarantee that no one with very much intelligence thinks it should or could be otherwise. So the question is how to constitute government. The laws we have tend to force people into a competetive model of economic interaction.

    Of course, I did not mean my remarks to extend to every area of life. I don't think conservatives see themselves as necessarily in competition with their families, for instance. But ceteris paribus, conservatives will opt for models of government which enforce competition instead of cooperation.
    I agree that government = force; however I disagree that the US law forces a competitive model. Finite resources and natural law do. In addition, competition for resources does not preclude cooperation. They are not opposing concepts. Cooperation is born out of consent of the governed at times, also charity and morality; which may or may not be constituted as law. Therefore conservatives will opt for models of government that maximize liberty, with a limited but important role reserved for government. Cooperation in the context of governmental force is extremely important to national security, equal protection, infrastructure etc… and in lesser ways maintained the local levels of government. With regard to social charity I do believe that cooperation should be largely voluntary. BTW. Conservatives tend to volunteer more time and money to private charity, so it's not a hollow philosophy.





    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean, here. If you mean that the effect of coercion is to create resentment among those coerced, you may be right. However, I'm not sure this matters. I'm sure that time I got on to my daughter and coerced her to not stick a wire in the electrical socket left her with some resentment for a while. I'm sure there are some convicted murderers who were caught red-handed, but who nevertheless resent the police and the prosecutors who put them where they need to be.
    Bad analogy, you are not coerced not to stick a wire in a socket, you are protected, and that appropriate. A good analogy would be to stick a gun to your head (governmental force), demand half of your earnings, give your cash to someone else with a smile (never crediting the actual source of the gift), and then asking for the vote of the recipient. Kinda divisive behavior.
    Conservatives have no problem with criminal law.



    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    The only relevant question is what people ought to do. The argument that government ought not to coerce cooperation because it will make some people upset is pretty weak. If people should cooperate in some manner, they should do so or be made to do so.
    The problem with “ought” is, it is subjective. We are a nation of objective laws based on consent. The federal government should limit and perfect its role as the protector of rights, protector of borders, protector of commerce, and protector of the right to consent (vote). Protection does not coerce. Coercion is not necessary for cooperation.

    I heard Will Cain say something I might agree with and like better than your competition vs cooperation model. The political spectrum is actually humility vs hubris.

  7. #37
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    I agree that government = force; however I disagree that the US law forces a competitive model. Finite resources and natural law do.
    What do you mean? To what natural law do you refer?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    In addition, competition for resources does not preclude cooperation. They are not opposing concepts.
    It seems to me that they are, though they can each exist in the context of a single relationship at different times. So, if that's what you mean, then sure, I agree. The relevant question is just how to "cash out" in a clear manner when and to what extent each is appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    Cooperation is born out of consent of the governed at times, also charity and morality; which may or may not be constituted as law. Therefore conservatives will opt for models of government that maximize liberty, with a limited but important role reserved for government.
    Everything after the "therefore" doesn't seem to follow from what goes before it. Two points:

    1) Cooperation is not necessarily a function of the consent of the governed. In certain things, government rightly coerces people whether they consent or not. Again, crime is an example. Ask any thief whether they consent to laws against theft, and my intuition tells me that they probably do not so consent. But nevertheless, they are forced to do so.

    We can think of even more general instances. Civil rights in the south is a pretty good example: government forced cooperation despite the consent of the governed, and it was right to do so. As a general rule, I would argue that we can infer some accurate propositions about the social contract, and where those are in process of being violated, government should force compliance, regardless of who consents and who does not.

    2) Who consents to what, and who subscribes to which morals, it not something that is set in stone. It's often a matter of education and belief. Especially where beliefs are simply false, and those false beliefs lead to a lack of consent where consent ought to be voluntary, again, government should force cooperation.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    Cooperation in the context of governmental force is extremely important to national security, equal protection, infrastructure etc… and in lesser ways maintained the local levels of government. With regard to social charity I do believe that cooperation should be largely voluntary. BTW. Conservatives tend to volunteer more time and money to private charity, so it's not a hollow philosophy.
    Two more points:

    1) One thing I infer from the fact that human beings come together to cooperate for survival is that there is a social contract. A contract implies mutual action, and fulfillment of any end of the bargain is not properly categorized as charity. The simple fact is that we cooperate to ensure mutual survival. One critical aspect of this is that those who do comparatively better help those who do comparatively worse, even if the difference is due to some congenital difference in ability. The reason for this is that when there is a society and a social economy such as ours, no one earns anything by dint of their own labor.

    It's quite easy to demonstrate this. We could imagine taking someone like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett and transporting them, as young men, to, say, Mesopotamia in the year 2900 B.C. Do either of them build exactly what they have built in our contemporary society? Of course not. They obviously can't. They exist in a time when the correct resources are not available...but that's the whole point. Their fortunes have required inputs which are only generated by a society such as ours. Ergo, their fortunes are not fully their own.

    2) The thought you just expressed was fairly common in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The simple fact is that it didn't work. It resulted in a huge harvest of human misery that really wasn't necessary. Had it continued, it would have resulted in civil wars...and there is at least a plausible analysis which suggests that WWI was partially a result of this line of thinking. Ditto the Great Depression.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    Bad analogy, you are not coerced not to stick a wire in a socket, you are protected, and that appropriate.
    Well, I am not, but that's only because I have all the relevant facts, the correct understanding, and the proper motivations about wires and electrical sockets. Your stated point was that coercion creates resentment. I agree, but pointed out why this is irrelevant, at least just as such.

    Now, if you want to argue that certain instances of coercion rightly create resentment, because the people being coerced have the relevant facts, correct understanding, and proper motivation, all of which militate against the impetus of the coercion, I'm all ears. But so far, I haven't seen that.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    A good analogy would be to stick a gun to your head (governmental force), demand half of your earnings, give your cash to someone else with a smile (never crediting the actual source of the gift), and then asking for the vote of the recipient. Kinda divisive behavior.
    It shouldn't be, unless you are genuinely living outside the bounds of any benefits which society bestows upon you. The fact that you're using the internet would make me suspicious of any such claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    The problem with “ought” is, it is subjective.
    I used to buy this line, but I don't any longer. It seems to me that there probably is an objectivity to morality, even if moral principles lack the same ontological status as rocks and clouds.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    We are a nation of objective laws based on consent.
    What do you mean, exactly, by consent here? Surely you don't mean that everyone agrees with all our laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1
    I heard Will Cain say something I might agree with and like better than your competition vs cooperation model. The political spectrum is actually humility vs hubris.
    Well, I think cooperation vs. competition is more about economics than politics, though the two obviously go hand in hand. I would be interested to hear a little more about humility and hubris.

  8. #38
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    How does the term "trickle down economics" fit anything that happened in the 80s?
    That was the term used to describe the economic theory the Reagan espoused. Feed the elephant well, the mice may find some undigested tidbits by waiting and then sifting through whatever crap might trickle down the elephants leg.

    As to how it fits anything that happened in th 80's? It does not. The failed theory produced nothing that could be pointed to.
    Time flies like an arrow; fruitflies like a banana. - Groucho

  9. #39
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Money from Government is supposed to Multiply to about $1.70 per dollar.
    Money refunded to the top 1% is the guise Reagonomics use.
    Government spending is supposed to yield $1.70 per $1 spent? That's a new one.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

  10. #40
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    Re: Where does the GOP have the least grasp on reality?

    The problem with this thread is that it takes a bunch of blanket issues and presumes the left wing argument is automatically correct while the right wing argument is indubitably wrong without actually listing the premise for either sides' arguments. It is, ultimately, the political equivalent to the play ground retort "my daddy is tougher than your daddy" with the obvious difference being the play ground retort actually has a specific measure to discuss.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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