View Poll Results: Does not giving the president everything he wants constitute government closure?

Voters
23. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, the government should be shut down if Obama doesn't get 100% what he wants

    2 8.70%
  • No, only what Congress will not fund should be shut down

    14 60.87%
  • IDK/Other

    7 30.43%
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Thread: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the government?

  1. #71
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    The 14th Amendment states otherwise... Th public debt and veteran pensions MUST be honored before any other expenditure ...
    Actually Sec.4 of the 14th A says the debts and pensions shall not be questioned, not must be paid first when it came to suppressing insurrection or rebellion. It was to block any attempt of the defeated South in claiming it was not obligated to pay for the National debt or Civil War Union pensions claiming they were not part of said Union at the time such debts were run up. It goes on to say no debt run up aiding the insurrection shall be paid by the Federal or state governments to include the monetary loss of slaves and all claims incurred in the rebellion are null and void.

    Not QUITE the same thing....

  2. #72
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    How about this? Republicans can have their defunded Obamacare, and basically destroy the whole program. But Democrats get something in exchange. Obviously, simply ending the shutdown isn't something for Democrats. That's something for everyone. So, if there are to be concessions, then Republicans have to give something in return. They can have their destruction of Obamacare, but they have to either give national support for SSM, or federally preempt voter ID laws. If the debt ceiling argument is now about partisan squabbles, then both sides ought to get something.
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    There is only one side refusing to negotiate and that side is the one who shut down government.

  4. #74
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    I'm not sure if I'm seeing it all correctly but I'm of the understanding the GOP leadership of the House has shut down most of the federal government's non-emergency operations due to pressure from its Tea Party members. However, certain non-emergency services have continued to be funded due to the risk of political fallout such as military pay. The motive, at least initially, was to halt his signature legacy legislation, The Affordable Care Act by holding most federal funding hostage unless he agrees to bring the ACA to a halt. All this to support the prime-directive of doing everything within their sphere of influence to make the President's job as difficult as possible with hopes of ultimately causing a "failed" Presidential legacy; in essence spraying graffiti on what was otherwise one of the most historic presidencies ever. Don't be surprised if this Christmas season they decide to create a crisis that forces him to stay in Washington while his family is sent ahead to Hawaii to celebrate most the Christmas season without him.

    I'm not saying there should not be an opposition to this or any White House only that the ACA was duly passed, upheld by the Supreme Court that the GOP idea of an individual mandate opposed by so many people who have health insurance is in fact constitutional and its repeal has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the National Park System and Passport office open.
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    Your analogy of a clothing a daughter doesn't work. It would be as if a father decided he was NOT going to buy their daughter a new $500 prom dress, so in response the mother declares she is going to starve all the children and have all utilities cut off until he does - and then blame the father for the children starving and no water or power.
    Well, no analogy is exact, and I'm not sure I was making an analogy anyway...more of a comparison. The Congress, and specifically the House in this instance, has a responsibility to fund the government. They aren't living up to their responsibilities, in a potentially very bad way. Government shutdown is one thing. The threat of default by the U.S. is rather more problematic.

    Your analogy is somewhat more exact, depending on who exactly the mother and father represent in this case. It seems to me that if your view is not partisan, you shouldn't be thinking in terms of what the republicans want to do and what the democrats want to do (that seems like de facto partisan thinking). Rather, the issue seems to be that Congress has passed a law, and failed to repeal it. The law is constitutional. Once Congress made it a law, they have a responsibility to respect it as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    Would it be acceptable for the Senate to shut down government because Republicans in the House weren't going to vote for nor to fund going to war against Syria?
    Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    When would the extortion by one side or the other of Congress ever stop if that level of extortion is correct - and we all agree that the side that won't agree to the extortion is always then the side in the wrong?
    I don't know that it would. This is why it is incumbent on the house to send a clean bill to the senate without further delay. If Republicans want to repeal the ACA, they should try to gain the requisite majority in both houses, and possibly the White House, and do so. If they cannot do those things, then it seems they should understand that's how our system of government is supposed to work.
    Last edited by ashurbanipal; 10-09-13 at 12:13 PM.

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Every representative and senator should vote their beliefs. If that means government shuts down, so be it. If there is something that there is enough agreement to fund, then it gets funded. The more granular these spending bills can get, the better, in my opinion.

    Bundling of budgets even into the dozen or so spending bills forces all or nothing choices, this way all you need to do is get your pet project into the bill and it has a good chance of passing. If each bill were a couple pages long, it would be quicker to debate each one and then pass or reject it. If the President has to sign a couple hundred funding bills to keep the government going, then he would have a real excuse to not go to the Asia Pacific meeting.

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon
    There is only one side refusing to negotiate and that side is the one who shut down government.
    If I come onto your porch and demand that you give me half of your house, would you agree to do so? Suppose the situation were such that others were watching, and I declared you were the one responsible for the impasse for being unwilling to negotiate.

    The point is that the ACA is a law. Congress passed it. The Supreme Court upheld it (by virtue of the vote of a conservative justice, I might add). Attempts to repeal it have failed. It's a house bought; there's no reason anyone should, or should have to, negotiate about defunding, delaying, or partially dismantling it.

  8. #78
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    I have heard talk of the Federal Government defaulting on it's debts.
    Lets explore that some.
    Alexander Hamilton Set up the Treasury to pay the bonds with incoming receipts.
    So how much is coming in vs the value of bonds that come due each month.
    From the current issue if the Treasury Bulletin.
    Current Issue: Treasury Bulletin: Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service look at Table 1-4
    The Average on Budget monthly receipts exceed the the interest in all but one of the last 24 months.
    Spending more than we make is always a concern, but we are unlikely to not meet
    the next minimum payment.
    Receipts in Billions
    Total , on Budget, off Budget
    2012 - June 260,177 205,262 54,916
    July 184,585 141,402 43,183
    Aug 178,860 134,871 43,989
    Sept 261,566 213,401 48,165
    Oct 184,316 144,166 40,150
    Nov 161,730 118,560 43,169
    Dec 269,508 230,049 39,459
    2013 - Jan 272,225 207,810 64,415
    Feb 122,815 67,807 55,008
    Mar 186,018 120,570 65,448
    Apr 406,723 332,553 74,170
    May 197,182 139,762 57,420
    June 286,627 220,392 66,235
    Interest on the debt.

    2012 - June 103,887
    July -52,817
    Aug 20,045
    Sept 16,700
    Oct 12,923
    Nov 25,069
    Dec 95,737
    2013 - Jan 17,817
    Feb 16,882
    Mar 23,472
    Apr 35,952
    May 24,378
    June 93,032

  9. #79
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    Europe does not have successful healthcare, nice try. And MA is a small scale, which would work, it's not national, you can't compare the two. The costs alone are bad for Americans. Apparently you don't watch the news.
    Compared to America? Europe has very a successful healthcare program. Countries such as Sweden and Finland have some of the highest standards of living in the world. Costs are far better in Europe than America. I'm sorry if I don't watch Fox News, I just research.
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  10. #80
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    If I come onto your porch and demand that you give me half of your house, would you agree to do so? Suppose the situation were such that others were watching, and I declared you were the one responsible for the impasse for being unwilling to negotiate.

    The point is that the ACA is a law. Congress passed it. The Supreme Court upheld it (by virtue of the vote of a conservative justice, I might add). Attempts to repeal it have failed. It's a house bought; there's no reason anyone should, or should have to, negotiate about defunding, delaying, or partially dismantling it.
    Stupid analogy mimicking Obama's stupid analogy.

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