View Poll Results: Does not giving the president everything he wants constitute government closure?

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  • Yes, the government should be shut down if Obama doesn't get 100% what he wants

    2 8.70%
  • No, only what Congress will not fund should be shut down

    14 60.87%
  • IDK/Other

    7 30.43%
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Thread: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the government?

  1. #61
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    It seems to me that there's an assumption in the OP that doesn't really seem correct. Before I say exactly what it is, consider an entirely different situation. Suppose me and my friends decide to take a road trip, and prior to leaving, we agree about who is going to be doing the driving when, and how we're going to pay for things. On the road, half the entourage decides they don't like the arrangements, and they take the keys and hide them. Then, they demand changes to their way, and blame the lack of progress on the other half who, insisting that things proceed according to the prior agreement, are cast as inflexible and unwilling to compromise.

    This seems almost an exact analogy to the current situation. The sticking point is the ACA. But that already passed into law. Attempts to repeal it have failed multiple times. Saying that the current kerfluffle is about whether we should give Obama what he wants or not is pretty disingenuous. There is an established and recognized means for repealing a law, and again, that pathway has failed. Congress should do their jobs at this point and send a clean funding bill. Ditto the debt ceiling. The assumption that it's back on the democrats seems to violate the usual manner of human interaction, though admittedly I don't and haven't sat in on the meetings that various washington politicians have held over this.
    Last edited by ashurbanipal; 10-08-13 at 11:54 PM.

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is as simplistic as the view in the OP. While I certainly feel that republicans are mostly at fault, they certainly are not entirely so. Until both sides set out reasonable demands and concessions, both have a share in the blame. I think republicans biggest fault here is they seem to see ending the shut down a concession, and it isn't.
    OK hold on a minute.
    The Democrats already agreed to cuts and a budget near Ryan levels. The Democrats already gave the Republicans everything "relevant" that they were seeking.
    You even make it sound as though the Democrats want something...
    What do Democrats want? They have not made one single demand.

    The problem is that Republicans do not care about the budget this round. They are hell bent on damaging the Affordable Care Act in some shape or form. The ACA is already funded and already a functioning LAW. It is not on the table.
    If the Republicans push the entire globe into a super depression... the ACA will still not be on the table. It will be one of the only things left intact after this Republican rampage.
    It has nothing to do with the debt limit and nothing to do with this Government shutdown.
    Both are merely being used as extortion tactics.

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    The 14th Amendment states otherwise...

    Th public debt and veteran pensions MUST be honored before any other expenditure ...
    Like most amendments, there is a lot of room for interpretation.

    Social Security is a public debt. It was paid in by the people, run at a surplus, and borrowed by the Government.
    And now it must be paid back.
    Seems to me that it is more of a public debt than interest owed to foreign nations.

    Depending on how you define a "Public Debt", pretty much everything the Republicans and Democrats already approved and voted on to incur these bills is all part of the debt owed by the public.

  4. #64
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    The country cannot default on the public debt unless the executive choose to do so,which would be unconstitutional, as there is plenty of recurring revenue to service the debt...
    Again that is not true. The Treasury is the one that pays the bills not Obama. They say that they cannot separate debt service from other checks that are printed by computer. They have no way of making sure the debt service will be paid if the ceiling is not raised. So quit kidding yourselves there will be SEVERE repercussions lasting over a generation as one economist put it. In other words your grandchildren will still be affected by it after you are dead. Ask yourself, are you feeling lucky?

  5. #65
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The CONGRESS couldn't pass a budget, as is their responsibility per the constitution, prior to the end of the year and then couldn't garner the support to pass legislation that traditionally is used as a temporary, emergency, continuation of funding but has recently became the defacto means of funding the government. As such, it constitutes CONGRESS as shutting down government entirely.

    Obama has no DIRECT responsibility, as a bill never reached his desk to either sign or veto. He has indirect responsibility in terms of his impact in getting a budget passed and then later getting a CR passed, but he's not DIRECTLY responsible for the shut down. That responsibility falls on the CONGRESS, both the Senate and the House.
    Technically that is accurate. In reality, Senate Democrats are not going to override the declarations of President Obama. Technically, it is Senate Democrats that shut down the entirety of government. Republicans only voted for a budget that shut down Obamacare.

    Obamacare was passed without any financing provisions on the promise that it would cost less. This turned out to be false. Now there is a bizarre demand that Republicans in the House MUST fund Obamacare, when they do not have to do any such thing. That Senate Democrats took the position - with Obama at the bully pulpit demanding the same - that they will extort Republicans (and everyone) by shutting down the federal government if House Republicans won't fund Obamacare.

    But you are technically correct, Obama has officially done anything at all.
    Last edited by joko104; 10-09-13 at 02:40 AM.

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    Obamacare was passed without any financing provisions on the promise that it would cost less.
    I don't recall this being an issue, exactly. Cost less to whom is the question to be asked. It was supposed to cost less to the U.S. as a nation, not necessarily less to the federal government. I don't think it's clear that it goes either way yet, and we won't know until it's been up and running for a few years. I won't be surprised if insurance costs on the whole go up, but that's because the law leaves too much to private insurance companies. There should have been a single payer system, but Republicans and some Democrats (mainly those of a more conservative bent) fought that proposal tooth and nail.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    This turned out to be false.
    Unclear.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    Now there is a bizarre demand that Republicans in the House MUST fund Obamacare, when they do not have to do any such thing.
    Yes, correct. Nor do I have to feed and clothe my daughter. Nor do I have to pay my employees, grade my students' essays, stop and stoplights for oncoming traffic, wait in line at the cash register like everyone else, or any number of the other usual responsibilities I have as a human being in my various roles. But I had better do all of those things, or face very serious unwanted consequences on multiple levels.

    Part of what is really quite exasperating about this mess is that when Democrats, and some Republicans, have mentioned this to the likes of Cruz or Boehner, it's cast as those Dems/Reps making threats. Imagine that I find someone pacing along the edge of the roof of a very tall building, and I say "if you aren't careful, you'll fall to your death." If their response is that I'm threatening this consequence, they're obviously not thinking clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    That Senate Democrats took the position - with Obama at the bully pulpit demanding the same - that they will extort Republicans (and everyone) by shutting down the federal government if House Republicans won't fund Obamacare.
    I don't recall a single Democrat threatening a shutdown over this.

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by falcata View Post
    You are just making an assumption with that. You do not know that for a fact, no one right now knows how this compromise will affect the American people in the future. You claiming to know so is really either just ignorance or conceitedness. This is especially true on a matter like health care reform where trends have shown far more successful required-purchase or single-payer systems seen in states like Massachusetts and countries in Europe.
    Europe does not have successful healthcare, nice try. And MA is a small scale, which would work, it's not national, you can't compare the two. The costs alone are bad for Americans. Apparently you don't watch the news.
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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Senate Democrats
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

    Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    The u.s government cannot pick and choose what order it pays back the debts it owes, it has to pay everybody, on time. Conisider the way bond owners and traders would view the situation.

    Why? A few years ago California sent out IOUs for income tax returns. Was California destroyed by this?

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    Re: Does refusing to give Obama anything he wants constitute closing down the governm

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I don't recall this being an issue, exactly. Cost less to whom is the question to be asked. It was supposed to cost less to the U.S. as a nation, not necessarily less to the federal government. I don't think it's clear that it goes either way yet, and we won't know until it's been up and running for a few years. I won't be surprised if insurance costs on the whole go up, but that's because the law leaves too much to private insurance companies. There should have been a single payer system, but Republicans and some Democrats (mainly those of a more conservative bent) fought that proposal tooth and nail.



    Unclear.



    Yes, correct. Nor do I have to feed and clothe my daughter. Nor do I have to pay my employees, grade my students' essays, stop and stoplights for oncoming traffic, wait in line at the cash register like everyone else, or any number of the other usual responsibilities I have as a human being in my various roles. But I had better do all of those things, or face very serious unwanted consequences on multiple levels.

    Part of what is really quite exasperating about this mess is that when Democrats, and some Republicans, have mentioned this to the likes of Cruz or Boehner, it's cast as those Dems/Reps making threats. Imagine that I find someone pacing along the edge of the roof of a very tall building, and I say "if you aren't careful, you'll fall to your death." If their response is that I'm threatening this consequence, they're obviously not thinking clearly.



    I don't recall a single Democrat threatening a shutdown over this.

    Your analogy of a clothing a daughter doesn't work. It would be as if a father decided he was NOT going to buy their daughter a new $500 prom dress, so in response the mother declares she is going to starve all the children and have all utilities cut off until he does - and then blame the father for the children starving and no water or power.

    My view of this isn't really partisan. Shutting down government because the House of Representatives won't fund something Democrats and the President want is totally unacceptable.

    Would it be acceptable for the Senate to shut down government because Republicans in the House weren't going to vote for nor to fund going to war against Syria? When would the extortion by one side or the other of Congress ever stop if that level of extortion is correct - and we all agree that the side that won't agree to the extortion is always then the side in the wrong?
    Last edited by joko104; 10-09-13 at 10:58 AM.

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